I'm going to be brutally honest: I don't really see the point in doing the cool cowboy thing of openly robbing an illegal side-business in this cool cowboy game. When I refer to an "open" robbery, I mean one where it seems nigh impossible to get in and out without attracting law attention, due to it being within a town and involving gunfire. Thus, it seems nearly impossible as well to get out without a bounty. And herein lies my problem.

I cover up my face with a mask, I rob the SB (the racket in the back of Valentine's doctor office), have a bit of a shootout, and get a bounty on my head. Then the game (and Google) tell me it's probably a good idea to change my appearance - wear different clothes, maybe shave (even though ALL my facial hair was obscured by a mask... sure) and that'll help me blend back in with the general populace. One thing: the bounty doesn't go away and there doesn't seem to be a visual indicator of how well my disguise (read: brown coat) worked during my crime.

So, are you supposed to just hope your new look works, always prepared for a bullet in the back by a bounty hunter? Or is a simple clothing change usually more than sufficient? And God forbid I might want to commit a crime in that general vicinity again; do I wear the same disguise as before (a "crime outfit") and risk attracting attention the minute I waltz into town? Or, is open robbery just more fucking trouble than it's worth? I'm beginning to lean toward that. One article I found simply suggests paying off your bounties. Well, that racket job didn't exactly pay very well, and the idea of committing a robbery netting me about $30 with which I then use to pay off a $50 bounty does not sound very "cowboy". Am I eventually going to be making scores that make the bounties they produce look like chump change?

I know the game just came out, but does anyone have a handle on this? This is frustrating since doing classic, rootin'-tootin' robbery was one of the things I was looking forward to in this game.

You're trying to gamify robing people, but maybe the whole point in RDR2 is that you shouldn't just be able to do that without consequences. Sure you can change your appearance and be mostly okay, but the bounty will always be on you and you have to accept the possibility that somebody will shot you in the back. And that's probably pretty true to life for a lot of the worst criminals in the old west.

If you don't want to deal with that, the easiest thing is just to not commit the crime. Or just make sure to kill every witness of course..

@poobumbutt: I'm not entirely sure but I think changing how you look will make it so that it will take longer for people to recognize you. Wandering around town with a bounty on your head from my experience did not solicit an immediate action from people. I thought I had to pay Bounties off at the Sheriffs office and was hanging around for several minutes in and around the office till the Sheriff finally recognized me. So maybe the game expects you to keep your visits to major towns short if you intend to be a criminal. But again, there's a lot to figure out.

@dragon_puncher: There are a lot of gamey systems in this game that exist almost purely for roleplay/simulation with very little benefit to the player, and I think that's great. Most games can't afford to put in the time it would take to create such optional features. You see where all that labour went.

Kinda tripping over the throughline face first into the mud here I think.

@alistercat: @dragon_puncher: @merxworx01: Very true with the part about having a ton to figure out. Honestly, I'm surprised I got more out of this thread than "I don't know. I've barely played 6 hours." Thanks for your responses everyone. If I seem peeved, it's not at you guys. This happens, in some regard, every time I play a Rockstar game. Also, @efesell, I know it may not seem like it, but I AM trying hard to "get" this. So, if it's not too much trouble, since you seem to have it down already, if you could just read this and give me your thoughts, I'd appreciate it.

As for "falling face first into the mud", I get being discouraged from robbing the average store-owner. I did test runs after my robbery of the racket and that's how I learned about the constantly existing bounty, but beyond that, I don't want to rob innocent people and the game makes it clear that I shouldn't. However, robbing an O'Driscoll criminal racket which is likely exploiting the good people of Valentine, not having some way of doing so quickly and getting basically the same punishment as if I robbed the general store seems wrong.

I should clarify: it seems wrong because of the note in my "tasks" objective bar that tells me that's a thing I can do. I feel like this is where my confusion actually comes from: a direct message from the game telling me "hey, look at this!" If I just ignore every racket ever because I might not break even, then the amount of tasks I would have would honestly just be a UI problem at a certain point, and that seems a shitty thing to do if you just want to make a point about "robbery is hard". I'm struggling to come to terms with the idea that not only are there systems designed not for my benefit (which sure, cool), but that the game would actively turn me toward those systems and then tell me "no, idiot. Weren't you listening when Arthur literally said 'times have changed. We're dying out'? God, listen. Ludonarrative resonance, look it up". Though, that also seems like the most Rockstar-ass design choice, as well.

Sure, "just don't do it, open robbery is stupid" seems like the easiest, most direct answer. But besides the UI clutter issue, there's the part where this whole game is about committing crimes and having a good old outlaw fun time during the story. You have the ability to commit those crimes and have fun in the open world... but then - even if you endeavor to not injure civilians or cops - you have to return, head bowed, and tell the nice man at the bounty office that you're "real sorry, here's a chunk - or all - of my earnings. I was a bad boy."

Again, it seems like the game is very close to communicating... something to me. It certainly isn't telling me "don't do it", the objective list proves that; but it isn't encouraging either, the lack of decent money proves that. It's clearly a thing the game wants me to engage with. That or horrendous future UI design. Wait, is that the point? That I can do it if I want, but I should know it'll be hard and possibly not pay off? That's the closest I've come to something that doesn't have a gaping logical hole in it. Well, then there's the part that Rockstar protags can always come back to life with no progress lost. So, that does add a cool "do it right the first time" element.

*SIGH* I guess I'll follow the advice of that article and just try not to rack up to huge a bounty and then pay it off afterward and hope really hard that I profit. Honestly, for all the insistence from you guys that the game is trying to tell me something about crime, it just seems to be saying "have fun when we want you to, player." At least when it comes to heist-style stuff.

Is there some sort of system where people recognize your outfit if you end up using the same costume to do robberies and the like? I know people can recognize you the player, but I'm kind of curious if you perfectly plan out every robbery/killing so that your wearing different clothes, different hair/facial hair and you do up the mask if that outfit on it's own can kind of build it's own reputation. Ala something like Hitman. It'd be interesting if the world around you noted that, as you could realistically then with enough careful planning become some sort of masked outlaw.

I'd hope that the difficult barrier to entry to be an outright outlaw in this only means the pay off is higher if you can successfully maneuver it.

I had the same question, I was performing the same robbery while wearing the facial bandanna yet still experienced the full effects of the bounty after waltzing back into Valentine. I wonder if the mask is purely aesthetic and there is no true way to disguise yourself to prevent getting a bounty... I was looking through the piggyback game guide that I bought while collecting the game, and I can't find much on it if I'm entirely honest.

@poobumbutt: okay, you really are deep into sometihng that's not applying here at all. From which angle do you want me to start this?

First of all: "I don't want to rob innocent people and the game makes it clear that I shouldn't." is not the case, since you can literally rob stagecoaches, trains and even sell those coaches at a fence. Not to mention that there's literally a challenge to hold up people. Next.

"but that the game would actively turn me toward those systems and then tell me "no, idiot." - This is also nonsense. You are playing an outlaw, its not about "robbery is hard", its about the most obvious and blatant fact that could ever exist: going right into a small town you've been in before, in a game in which people recognize your face and character, and robbing a place you've been to before might come at some inconveniences. You know, like the whole part of the story where your gang is constantly on the move because they're escaping from the law, or the fact that people never really liked outlaws to begin with? That kind of inconvenience.

"But besides the UI clutter issue" - There's literally 0 UI besides the map most of the time, and the rest is contextual. I dunno what word you were looking for here, but clutter isnt it.

"It certainly isn't telling me "don't do it", the objective list proves that; but it isn't encouraging either, the lack of decent money proves that" - The lack of "decent" money is something that goes through this game. Even collecting bounty will get you "only" around $50. You'll get money through activities and robberies soon enough. Starting from chapter 3 I had bought almost every upgrade and everything I wanted for myself already, financing myself through robberies mostly.

"That I can do it if I want, but I should know it'll be hard and possibly not pay off? That's the closest I've come to something that doesn't have a gaping logical hole in it." - The logical hoe is you not understanding a simple thing: choice. You do know that you don't have to pay bounty right? You do know that you an literally terrorize a town over and over again right? Keep the side businiess bust until you're done with Valentine and then come back and rob the whole city empty. You can do that, over and over again until everyone cries in fear when they see you. Literally designate one area just as a cash cow for you to rob and you're good to go. You enjoy Valentine? Choose Strawberry instead. Robbing a city while you still have business in town, well.... what did you think would happen?

You totally can rob banks in towns where you've shown your face before, but the game clearly tells you that people react to you in this game. If you cannot deal with that and accept the bounty and repercussions then yeah, the outlaw life isn't for you. I got over $500 in two states and I couldn't give less of a shit about it. Maybe you should stick to robbing people and stealing coaches in the middle of nowhere.

Theres a point to robbing the doctors in valentine. The gang in the back has a unique revolver in a small case on the table its called the Schofield Revolver thats why you rob them.

OK, @fruitsofthesun, let's get down to business. I've had quite a bit more time with the game and more time to watch others play the game.

First: evidently, robbing people is not the most profitable choice you can make in this game, at least at the still very early point I'm at in the game - it sounds like that choice is actually doing the main game missions - though it's nice to hear that changes and becomes more profitable later. So, this alleviates one big worry I had (which wasn't voiced in either of my earlier posts): that if you wanted "good money", you needed to rob people, preferably bad ones, or easy ones. Finding that's untrue actually calms me about a lot of my previous issues. I thought this was a system you either needed to learn, or get ready for the game to kick your ass.

Second, when I mentioned not robbing innocents, I meant that the game discourages you with the morality system. Robbing the O'Driscoll's doctor office does nothing to your morality because they're shitheads; but considering I'm the type who is actively afraid - illogically, likely - of the fact that some side missions will disappear if you don't have the proper morality meter, I consider constantly robbing innocents to be a bad decision. Miscommunication on me.

On that note, yeah I know about stagecoaches, but I'm so early, the game still hasn't given me the mission that tutorializes them. I'm waiting on that. And yes, before you say, I know I don't need to, I've gotten the fence so I know I can try that, I just prefer waiting to be told.

Paging @devise22 and @cataplasia. So, the bounty system. Hoo boy. After writing my first post, I did find that apparently, there is an outfit/horse system in the game which contributes to revealing your identity. Side note: the veracity with which people seem to think this is all common knowledge is clown-shoes goofy. The first Red Dead, you put on your mask and you might as well be a space alien. "Who's that man dressed exactly like John Marston, sheriff? We need to stop him and give John his clothes back!" There's an incredible "ha-ha, silly n00b" attitude with people questioning the bounty system. Which is weird since it doesn't seem to work, or not consistently. (Sorry we all didn't watch the pre-release gameplay videos, I guess) I've tested myself and seen others try to rob places with a new, designated for crime outfit, new horse and a full hood (not just bandana) on, and the second a lawman gets their eyes on you: "WANTED ARTHUR MORGAN". But others get shit done just fine. I know a general rule is to keep lawman violence to a bare minimum if you don't want a huge bounty, but that doesn't explain the X-ray vision. Does it only work on civvies?

UI clutter: what I mean is the left d-pad menu where your "tasks" and "challenges" are. Every time you get a "robbery tip", it goes there. I assumed that if I got a bunch of "rob this side-business" tips, but put them off to deal with later as you suggest at one point, it would become crowded and tough to find anything in it. Again, still not far enough in to know if that's true.

The lack of decent money comment had less to do with the actual money and more to do with my confusion that the game at the time seemed to be telling me "pay off this $60 bounty you got from your $40 robbery or have a hell of a time trying to play in and around this town." Again, before I understood that robbing in the early game is not what the game "wants" you to do if you want "good money" and before I understood the outfit and bounty system. Well, I should say "knew about", 'cause evidently I still don't understand it.

Anyway, thanks for the response. The parts about being able to just terrorize a town endlessly after you're "done" with it (though I don't know if I'll be willing to pay the morality price, I'm just "that dude") and how the robbery and activity money will pick up eventually were very relieving. This might have felt like being talked down to by Neil Degrasse-Tyson after asking some question about the atmospheric density of Mercury and getting an "Ugh. Ignorant people" lecture... but if that's the price I have to pay for the only helpful response - and it was helpful, legit thank you - I'll gladly pay it.

Found this thread when I Googled this issue. Apparently I'm invested enough in the game to care.

To give you context, I'm the type of borderline lunatic gamer that: A) has completed more than half of the game's available side quests, challenges and crafting before finishing Chapter 2, and B) was willing to restart a checkpoint on the Lindsey Wofford (dead or alive) bounty like 5 times, because he was holed up in a small space in which my lasso kept bugging out and killing him.

I have read the whole thread and understand everyone's points (despite my bewilderment at how quickly people get snarky on a gaming forum for no reason). At first, I had a hard time wrapping my perfectionist head around some of the missed opportunities in my experience. For example, trying to stop a stickup in the streets of Saint Denis but experiencing a heartbreaking casualty nonetheless was pretty rough. Could I have been a little faster? I got there almost as fast as humanly possible once I heard the shouting. Is there another possible outcome or was the encounter designed so the gun would always fire at that moment right before I could save the day, so that I HAD to feel that sense of grief? Someone let me know if you know what I'm referring to and got there faster than I did. There have been several events like this that prodded at my patience, but as I move forward I am gaining a better understanding of the game's design and thus a deeper appreciation of these moments. Saving a dude's life, only to see the same dude hang for something unrelated a few days later was my turning point - it caught me genuinely off-guard and was also really, really cool.

However, I do have a gripe with this particular Business Robbery mission. I've tested a few different tactics to see if getting out with full pockets but without a bounty is possible. I even killed everyone in the room using throwing knives without a shot being fired. No dice - the law will always show up. So it becomes a matter of how quick you get out (ie how greedy you are). As someone who stops mid-mission to loot pretty much every single body, leaving all those valuables in the room was difficult for me to do. But the aim of the mission is acquiring the revolver, and you can nab that and get out with a very small bounty or none at all. So as annoying as it was at first, I am starting to like this choice and consequence system more and more. I only wish that there was some 'perfect' way to complete missions like this, even if it takes a lot of trial and error to figure out. Hmmmm, maybe if I light a building on fire on the other side of town first as a distraction? I won't hold my breath.

I realize my response is kind of tangential. But from my limited point of view, the overarching themes of the game are consistent and this mission is a reflection of that. How long it takes for each player to get it just depends on their respective attitudes and playstyles. It really isn't a game for everyone, I'm realizing. It is DEFINITELY a game for me though; I can hardly put it down. Now if I could just shoot down a bird from the top of a moving train without getting A LUDICROUSLY FUCKING MASSIVE BOUNTY FOR DOING BASICALLY NOTHING WRONG, ESPECIALLY WHEN I CAN'T PAY FOR A TICKET WITHOUT FAST-TRAVELLING, well then that would be just peachy (Kappa).

Turns out Crime doesn't pay off. Unless it's a story mission or one of those robbery ones :D.

You can buy masks at Fences to help conceal your identity more

So I did the Valentine robbery and got the revolver, but was then immediately shot dead. However, I didn't have a bounty afterwards. I still have the revolver, though. And the mission to rob the doctor also still shows up in my tasks list, although when I approach the locked door, there is no prompt anymore. As impressive as this game is, sometimes I don't quite follow its logic. Is the logic "You're getting shot, so you're theoterically dead, so there is no bounty, but you still get to keep the rewards" (in this case the revolver)? Oh well...