Hogwarts Legacy and the Dilemma of Ethical Consumption

We have gone off topic here I think. But I don't agree with you on most points that you provide. The thread is about the Hogwarts game and not about whether JKR is transphobic. So for the sake of the thread I think we should leave this discussion so that we don't derail the original point of the thread more than we have already done.

@pnutz83: That’s a huge pile of horseshit you’re shoveling. If Rowling wasn’t a transphobe there’s no dilemma in purchasing and playing Hogwarts Legacy. It’s precisely because she’s a bigot that’s giving people pause. This is just plain gaslighting.

@pnutz83: The thread is about the ethics on financially supporting a game that JKR will get royalties with in light of her transphobic statements and actions, this is exactly what this thread is about.

I am confused how the content of the books she writes is not part of the discussion regarding her transphobia. Can you enlighten me as to why these are "off-topic"?

The discussion ongoing has been if and how one is able to reconcile supporting this game when it will benefit her entirely due to her views on this subject.

If you would like to explain how talking about said subject is off topic I would be very interested.

Because right now? It looks like you've been caught flat footed and are trying to feed some us some shit.

I don't even know what gaslighting is so sorry about that. If you want to continue I'm all for it. My view on JKR is that she is confused and should probably be quiet about these things and not dig deeper because the more she talks about it the deeper the hole gets. I don't get why she chose that name. Seems to be some sort of trolling or such. The thing I don't agree on though is that she is transphobic. Confused yes. Scared about weird stuff (trans people raping women on toilets) yes. But I don't think she is transphobic though, because I don't know her and I don't like to judge people I don't know.

My point is she hasn't outright said anything awful, but people are acting as if she has. And the more people act that way, the more people believe it.

In contrast, many people have explicitly said they want to rape or kill her. So are we expected to hate her over nuance and interpretation that may or may not be intended, but be fine with outright hate against her?

Are people seriously OK with the death threats, and the rape threats posted publicly to her?

Neither of us know what is in her heart.

I do happen to live near the man who was Daniel Radcliff's stuntman for many of the Harry Potter films, who was paralysed when the filming of a quidditch scene went wrong.

He lives in a wonderful house JK Rowling bought for him so that he would be comfortable. She spoke up for him when neighbours objected to adaptations such as an outdoor lift to help him live independently.

I haven't personally met her, but it seems to me she is a very caring person. I could be wrong, but I am uncomfortable with reading so much vilification with so little concrete evidence.

@pnutz83: You claim you won't judge someone you don't know but apparently you will contort yourself into a pretzel to defend them.

@pnutz83: Chuck's mindpowers are a metaphor for a person using their empathy and aloofness to homeschool a support network. Can't think why I used that one.

Also,

I do not condone anyone making threats of any such kind and condemn those who would. But damn, weird that Joanne would end up being the subject of hate for people who feel she's being wildly discriminatory and transphobic. Guess the only thing that could be worse for her would be if someone judged her simply on the basis of gender groupings or was unable to accept transitioning. Say, from "Joanne" to "JK". Certainly hope it doesn't come to that. That might seem harsh.

I think what my concern becomes is, if I forgo every person/company/entity that has ever done something wrong then I basically have to become a hermit and live off the land since every human is guilty of some unethical behavior. I mean sure, there's a limit like I'm not going to go out and buy a box of cereal called "Hitler-O's" but I guess it just such a question of "where's the line?"

@cyberbloke: No one has condoned death threats, don't deflect, and I don't care how nice she was to a stuntman. This is about blatantly hurtful words and actions she has repeatedly said and condoned.

@pnutz83: Alright, I’m gonna make one last attempt to state my case and be done with it. Ultimately it does not matter what label you give to Rowling, transphobe or not. What matters is that she has used her platform to attack a very vulnerable and demonized minority of people. She has normalized the harmful stereotype that trans-women are sexual predators. She has campaigned against laws in the UK designed to protect the dignity of trans people. These are facts in the public record. Call her whatever you wish, but it’s undeniable her “confusion” materially harms trans people. The ones who are attacked, ostracized, and outright murdered on a daily basis.

If you can look at all that and hem and haw about semantics of what flavor of bigot Rowling is, then I can only conclude that you are a transphobe, or as you would put it, “confused”.

Believing she is a transphobic bigot does not mean we support threats against her and making that argument is not only in bad faith, but is also some hot bullshit.

Also, bigots can also be nice to other people who they are not bigoted against. I lived in a small town of 900 people growing up. I knew lots of amazingly kind people that went on to disappoint me when all they needed to do was not be racist.

Edit: That feminist store is openly TERF. People do know that TERF stands for "trans-exclusionary radical feminist"? The store literally sells things that say "transwomen are men". One cannot sell those things and not be considered transphobic.

@pnutz83: Confused? Like mentally unstable? Writing words that she didn't mean to? Not able to do her research? I think it makes a ton more sense to judge people on their words and actions than assume that they have some underlying cause that they should probably let a professional take a look at. How can you say she's confused when you've never met her?

Blatantly hurtful words that nobody seems to be able to produce.

Ok lets try this I don't think that peoples opinions can harm other people unless you let them harm you. Stating an opinion in my world is not an attack according to me. Seems like alot of you don't agree therefore we are at an impass here, and I don't think we can continue this discussion.

I'm not an transphobe. I support the trans-movement very much and still I won't judge JKR just yet. That someone on the internet who doesn't know me at all calls me a transphobe don't effect me at all.

I do note you have made no comment about her book or referring people to a transphobic store.

What are you talking about?

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/12/19/21029852/jk-rowling-terf-transphobia-history-timeline

Also, we are all online. Don't ask people to produce things for you. You got the same tools as the rest of us and Google is very user friendly.

I do not know you, and I don't know what you are in your heart of hearts.

You have however presented yourself as nothing but a blind defender of someone repeatedly espousing transphobic beliefs. So I'm not sure what else I should be expected to think of you.

@pnutz83 said:

Yeah, I'm not sure how this squares with living in a democracy, where public opinions shape laws that carry the force of government. If a powerful and influential writers like JKR is able to use her wealth and power sway public opinion on trans-folks, now her opinions are very close to hurting people.

Also, words can be harmful or helpful. The power of speech is so important that many governments protect it. So claiming that an opinion(aka, thoughts put into words) cannot harm anyone sounds very naïve.

General comment, I was really expecting the Rowling defenders to have better reasoned arguments, but no, it’s just Trump-supporter level of denying reality. Bigots gonna bigot I guess.

I started out saying I have read all of her tweets that are considered transphobic. I have read her essays. I just can't see the hatred in her words. I have asked again and again for examples of her transphobia, but they don't seem to exist.

I do, however, find her choice of pen name a bit suspect, I must admit.

@pnutz83: Can't here you, I'm over here enjoying the party your cognitive dissonance is having this year. Music is too loud to maybe think that this year might be a year to teach you that you should trust people by their actions.

For real though, good on you for being a supporter of the trans-movement. My frustration with your unwillingness to deny yourself the gamble of future pleasure over standing against discrimination notwithstanding.

Yup I'm a naive and postive human being who try to see the best things in every individual I meet. I moved on from being cynical years ago and I feel great and am extremely happy every day. I have basically no things to be sad about at all. 2020 has been a great year (one of the best in gaming) and we have a lot of nice things to look forward to. And no I'm not sarcastic at all.

@cyberbloke: Ok, ball’s in your court chief. Explain why you think her tweets aren’t transphobic. David Duke could tell me that he doesn’t think the Republican Party is racist, but that doesn’t hold a lot of water.

@cyberbloke: Just the pen name? Not the subject matter of promoting transphobic talking points in the midst of being accused of transphobic behavior?

@pnutz83: I do hope you're trollin because otherwise I'd be real bummed out.

I'm sorry I'm not. I have had a great year and I'm really happy every day. In my country covid-19 hasn't really changed my way of living at all.

@pnutz83: Great year , doin' great. Don't know what everyone else is so worried about just look at how good I'M doing.

It is possible you could keep those naïve views to yourself and save us all a lot of time? Because it is really frustrating to have a discussion with someone who believes words cannot impact peoples lives. There is overwhelming evidence that people putting opinions into the world has harmed people. For example, the opinion that "vaccines cause autism" has been a net loss for all of us. No one here is advocating for censorship, only that word and opinions have consequences(like not buying a video game).

@pnutz83 said:

That sounds great, good for you. Must be nice. My wife's has been on a number of calls about former employees(nurses) that passed away due to COVID over the last 6 months. Half of the firm I work for is out of work. I pretty much stress out every day about my father, who has one lung, catching it. But glad you can stay positive and tell us to see the best in people who have been terrible for years.

Yup. Try it. Makes you happy. My philosophy is that you should only do the things that make you happy as often as possible. Minimise boring things.

Ah.

I just responded to a post. But of course I can keep that to myself. I understand that it is frustrating to discuss with me and I tried to end the conversation earlier but someone said I was gaslighting (still don't understand what that is I'm prolly to stupid) so I continued but I will gladly leave if that is ok with everyone.

I mean do what you want, I will definitely get in trouble on this website if I continue to interact with you.

@cyberbloke: @pnutz83:

Folks in the year of our lord 2020 actually trying to say "she's just confused," Christ.

Here's a boatload of videos with specific quotes from JKR and explaining why the misinformation she's spreading is transphobic.

Kat Blaque

Lindsay Ellis

(The Lindsay Ellis also has a couple of links to some great Riley Dennis explanations, but that is on the more factual, research-y side of things)

Sarah Z

The next two don't quote JKR, but explain why the views she is platforming make no sense.

Contrapoints debunking the "Gender Critical" views Rowling espouses

Philosophy Tube also has a great piece on why questioning trans people's identities is fruitless, even from a purely philosophical or empirical standpoint

I doubt folks who continue to waffle about Joanne concern themselves with such petty trifles as "doing research," so I doubt that y'all will watch any of these videos in full. This is a resource for people who are genuinely curious.

With that in mind, here's my two cents on why what she has said is deeply harmful to trans individuals, in case clicking links is too labor-intensive to learn more about people you clearly don't care about. (Spoiler blocked)

Going to end this on the note that it's real strange, when comparing the plight of a millionaire author whose works are read all over the world, and unknown trans women who are murdered in the streets, to be worried about the millionaire.

Sorry man. Was never my intent. Just try to remove all the dumb things I've said from your memory and move on with your day. It is not worth your time to think about some douche on the internet and what he/she says.

Good luck with that cognitive dissonance.

Thank you. Learned that from my ex. Really annoyed me at the start of our relationship but then I learned to discuss using it. Annoys the hell out of people because it doesn't fit into regular discussions and it's almost impossible to move on with the discussion.

Edited to reflect that there was more than "Thank you" in the edited version.

@pnutz83 Oh I see, you've got your ways of making sure other people's stuff is something that just washes off. To be specific, "I don't care about what they do with the money, I just want to feel good about purchase", is in 2020 I feel(I feel), it is no longer enough. Glad to hear COVID is not affecting your life specifically, my own country is getting to the point where the word "Blitz" no longer refers to a single unit but as a way to measure progress. The weather here is getting wilder and wilder every year and the crops we try to grow suffer more and more as we adapt more and more. Seemingly all at once, large parts of the world have decided to elect people based on "sad uncle at wedding energy" and then refuse to judge them for what they do because the elected promised to only be mean to others.

This thread was specifically about the morality of purchase of a product that benefits someone who spreads discrimination, ignorance and hate, before recoiling and proclaiming themselves aghast at people thinking she's wrong. Buy. Don't buy. Keep. Don't keep.

But trying to say "let go of the douche on the internet" when that is the subtext of the hour really seems like you're missing it.

@pnutz83: gaslighting: manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity.

It is at term used to describe the behavior of lying about things that are demonstratively true. For example, it would be gaslighting if someone said that they didn't remember David Duke doing anything racist, even though I showed them photos of him as a KKK member last time we talked about it. It is lying with the purpose of making people question their own memories.

@pnutz83: Someone who just holds an opinion is not harming anyone, simply by holding said opinion. I understand that point and I agree with it on a conceptual level. The thing is, in the real world, opinions do not exist in a vacuum. Your opinions affect how you talk to people, how you treat people, how you interpret what other people say, how you live your life, which laws or politicians you vote for, and so on.

And the other thing is--and this may be a point that many people simply disagree on--some opinions simply not worthy of respect. Someone is free to have the opinion that transwomen are men who want access to women's bathrooms. That opinion is a bad one, though, and I'm not going to respect someone who has it. Opinions that devalue another person's humanity are not valid opinions, is what I'm saying.

Regarding your post about not being cynical and being happy all the time, good for you. I am happy for you that the pandemic wasn't huge in your country, and I hope wherever you are has also managed to dodge the resurgence in far-right politics that much of the world has seen lately. I can see how someone who does not live in the US could be having a much better year.

Thank you. I never understood it before and I'm so sorry if you thought I actually tried to do that. It was never my intention. All of you seem much more sane than me. You have very well founded arguments and since I guess english is your first language (not my first language) you have a very eloquent way of making your points, all of you.

I just want to say that the debate climate on GB is one of the best I've ever experienced. There is a lot of respect and people are really good at keeping the personal attacks at bay.

Not to dredge up an old argument, but I wasn't quite sure if this necessitated its own thread yet or not, and this seemed like the second most apt place to bring it up.

As some people on Twitter started noticing the other day, and as Kotaku is now reporting on, the lead designer on Hogwarts' Legacy is Troy Leavitt. While that in and of itself isn't out of the ordinary (it's my understanding that Leavitt has worked on a few WB projects before, as well as other licensed projects like Disney Infinity's DLCs), what is a bit more noteworthy is the fact that Leavitt's Youtube account has dozens of videos supporting GamerGate, claiming that "SJWs" are a would-be totalitarian force that's ruining the world, and "debunking" harassment allegations. While the Youtube account has not seen any uploads in a little over two years, he still has it linked to his twitter, and a short jaunt into his Twitter history reveals largely the same sentiments.

So while J.K. Rowling may not be personally involved (instead only standing to gain continued legacy and fame when a game using her property exists and does well), there's clearly still plenty of similar vitriol among at least one of the project's leads.

@franzlska: Good grief. Makes sense, but, ugh.

Throw em in the gulags

I can't add anything new to this but my feelings are a mix of Yuck, ew.. and ughhhhh.

@franzlska: I wonder how long Mr. Leavitt will remain the project lead now that that's being reported on before WB voluntells him to leavitt the project. See what I did there

@vaiz: I'd like to think WB could at least recognize bad publicity when it comes knocking, but considering the Kotaku article mentions that Leavitt claims he informed WB of his channel before being hired and claims they were completely fine with it, I'm not going to hold my breath. Even if I did think highly enough of WB to imagine they would do something like that, I'm not sure that just sacking the dude would fix much of anything, insofar as that would even be possible with this property.

They already had enough heat from people rightfully pointing out all the racist and transphobic material Rowling packed into that universe, aspects of that world that will almost certainly have wormed their way into the game. That they would then approach it with such negligence as to put someone like Leavitt in a leadership position... I can only get the impression that this game will be roughly on par with all of the horrible shit Rowling has written over the years, even if they did by some miracle remove Leavitt and investigate the aspects of the game which he had a direct hand in.