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    Total War: Shogun 2

    Game » consists of 3 releases. Released May 26, 2011

    Total War: Shogun 2 is the sequel to Shogun: Total War, the first game in the Total War series. Shogun 2 is an epic strategy game, combining real-time 3D battles with turn based city and economic management.

    The dreaded Realm Divide mechanic (and a cool mod that tweaks it)

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    zameer

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    #1  Edited By zameer

    How are you duders finding the Realm Divide mechanic? It's essentially the Mongol/Timurid (or Roman Civil War) late game face rape in Shogun 2. Gaining "legendary" clan status and/or launching a bid for the shogunate by sieging Kyoto is more or less diplomatic suicide: you get a diplomacy penalty which eventually snowballs into a huge irreversible negative score. It makes retaining your allies impossible, and the AI stops fighting to begin a concerted effort to just crush you.  
     
    I understand why it was implemented because without it you'd just ride on the momentum and smash everyone's faces in, especially since some castles are so close to each other that capturing two within a single stack's turn is pretty common.  
     
    But Oda Nobunaga certainly didn't pave the way to a united Japan alone; he had to exercise shrewd diplomacy and political maneuvering.  Suffice it to say that this mechanic proves vexing for those who've traditionally played Total War games this way. 

    THIS MOD HERE tweaks the Realm Divide mechanic as follows:  

     Realm Divide Mod v1.0

    This mod changes the realm divide event significantly. Instead of a low initial diplomacy hit which adds up every turn by -5 points until you get a -200 penalty, you get a moderate initial hit (around -55 on normal difficulty) which gets reduced every turn by -4 points. That way allies and factions you have good relations with may stay on your side and diplomacy doesn't become impossible after the realm divide event.

    The mod also contains some minor diplomatic adjustments: financial gifts and giving away you children as hostages both have longer lasting diplomatic effects (reduction of the effects each turn is now -4 instead of -5). 

     

    I'm playing a fresh game with this mod and my Date homeboys are sticking with me 40 turns after the Realm Divide kicked in, and we're up against the Hattori, Chikosabe, and the rest of the West. The game's graduated from a piecemeal grab for power to a very compelling East vs West civil war.
    I recommend you guys give it a try! Seems solid and all you gotta do is unzip one file to the app folder! :)   
      

          Oda Nobunaga's stache approves
          Oda Nobunaga's stache approves
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    Mirado

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    #2  Edited By Mirado
    @zameer:  When I hit Realm Divide, I was already at war with the three other major clans and only allied with the Chosokabe , but my relationship was so good with them that they stuck with me (Shimazu) as I swept west and messed up the Asai (They had 16 provinces, but they were down to 2 by the time I won, haha!). It was good thing too, as the Oda and Takeda clans had wiped everyone else out, and proceeded to focus their rage at the poor Chosokabe, who were down to one province by the time I won. Poor bastards, at least they kept the seas clear.
     
    Still, I think the mechanic can use some tweaking but I'm not sure I like the solution presented. It turns the Realm Divide into a minor inconvenience rather then a game changing event, as by that point in time I was able to field two full stack armies that sort of pincered up southern Hanshu all the way to Kyoto. I sort of needed everyone to gang up on me, although I agree that it could be done a bit more subtle.
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    zameer

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    #3  Edited By zameer
    @mirado: It didn't prove to be a HUGE hindrance to me when I won the Grand Campaign with the Oda, so yeah I definitely agree with ya. I was waging war on two fronts rather successfully, my Hatakeyama vassals served me really well on the Eastern front. But the relationship kept deteriorating and they eventually turned on me. No amount of money or goodwill could save it, and that was really frustrating.
     
    I don't think it necessarily makes the game too easy; the "indifferent" and "unfriendly" factions wasted no time in declaring war on me once hell broke loose. I'll tell you guys if there's ever a scenario where you can claw back and make some allies after recovering from the diplomacy penalty though. 
     
    Someone in the TWC forums suggested a system whereby the penalty is applicable to everyone who's not a tight ally, which seems logical.  Another possible route would be the diplomacy penalty being removed from your allies after you install yourself as Shogun, which strikes me as the best solution. Your allies would naturally be unsure of your abilities and abstain from taking sides in the Realm Divide until you've proved your ability to take your enemies on.  
     
    Sadly the modders can't find a way to fine-tune it this way (yet), so I thought I'd post this up as a stop-gap solution for those interested!
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    Mirado

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    #4  Edited By Mirado
    @zameer:  Perhaps a honor based solution? If you are in an alliance, perhaps your honor plus your allies has to reach a certain threshold or it's broken off? That could give you a nice risk/reward decision: do I try to make friends with the massive clan who might stab me in the back when i'm ready to take over, or do I go with a smaller, loyal clan who will stick with me but not contribute as much militarily? And if you have low honor, perhaps those clans might see through to your power grab and unite against you?
     
    Not sure if that is possible, and I agree that this mod is better then nothing, but something like the above would be nice.
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    veektarius

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    #5  Edited By veektarius

    I haven't played on anything above hard, but I can tell you from experience that if you play the game strategically on normal or hard, the game doesn't really even get interesting until the realm divide.  If you're willing to spend to do it , you can diplomatically avoid a multifront war.    Only once the Shogun steps in does that become impossible.  Though I'll admit I had a few rough years just before the divide when my geographically largest ally unexpectedly betrayed me in my lowest match.   
     
    The problem with the mod's solution is that it's really easy to be on very friendly terms with most of Japan just through sustained trade, even without alliances.  It seems like they wouldn't attack you until way too late.

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    ryanwho

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    #6  Edited By ryanwho

    My inclination is always to push in one direction or another, so by the time realm divide pops up I've only got enemies coming in from a single side of the map.

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    bwmcmaste

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    #7  Edited By bwmcmaste
    @ryanwho:  
     
    This is how I was contemplating starting my next campaign. My last game was the first time I had been approached with the "Realm Divide" event (even though I've attained the Shogunate twice before), and I felt like the Roman state beating back immense hordes of barbarians.
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    mikemcn

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    #8  Edited By mikemcn
    @ryanwho said:
    " My inclination is always to push in one direction or another, so by the time realm divide pops up I've only got enemies coming in from a single side of the map. "
    Same, my first campaign was just a rush to take the shogunate, but when I did and realized everyone now hated me, I had like a dozen different cities besieged at once. 
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    ryanwho

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    #9  Edited By ryanwho

    Its kind of a strategic bummer to have something like that chime in like clockwork. I do support any kind of variation on that aspect. I really honestly wouldn't mind from a gameplay perspective if they built campaigns around imagined maps (the modders I mean, or the devs, really.) I feel like strat devs in general put too much stock in how much people care about historical accuracy and not enough stock in what they can do with their gameplay. Civ 5 is another example, where you have like 6 unique civs you could make with the history of a place like Rome, China, England, etc, but instead you're forced to find some weird obscure shit from Polynesia. I can't think of a strat game where it wouldn't get better mechanically as soon as the devs stopped giving a damn about representing history.

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    veektarius

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    #10  Edited By veektarius
    @ryanwho: I think that this game is a bad example, but I've noticed on the Total War forums that a lot of europeans really get off on the chance to play as their own country, and I can say I've felt the same thing to a lesser extent playing American in Civ.  The thing is, Civ is already abstracted beyond believability, whereas Total War plays it a little straighter.  It might be mechanically the same, but I think that taking over "the world" will always trump taking over "a world".   
     
    My complaint in these games is that from the perspective of an American who doesn't have a horse in the race, it's hard to feel like I'm doing anyone any good by conquering the world.  Those 2,000 French soldiers I just killed - what did they die for except my bloodlust?  I'd have more fun in an imaginary setting where we could tell good from evil.  Some Civ mods have attempted this with success but the mainstream 4x games seem to either be historical or shit.
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    ryanwho

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    #11  Edited By ryanwho

    They can keep the historical element, I enjoy it plenty myself, I just don't think they need to limit themselves to real world history. Cus you get a game like this, that is fun, yeah, but I played the map. I played Japan. I kinda wanna play a different map, you know? Land specifically designed with the game's mechanics in mind. Its not really aimed specifically at this game, this game just happened to remind me of a general beef I have with these sort of games sometimes.

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    Tennmuerti

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    #12  Edited By Tennmuerti

    It would be kind of too easy with that mod.
    Realm Divide at least provides a challange as soon as you start gaining momentum, keeping the game interesting.
    And if your allies are on good enough terms with you, they will stick by your side even with RD.

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    bwmcmaste

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    #13  Edited By bwmcmaste
    @ryanwho: I can see what you're alluding to. ETW was a good example of defying history (you could conquer North America as India for instance), but they didn't really push the envelope. Personally, I would like to see the kind of commitment to historical representation that Europa Barbororum achieved, but perhaps with better mechanics. It would be nice if they could include some kind of map creation tool, but I don't think that the Total War series would accommodate the kind of broader general strategy of the Civilization style games.

    As I said in another thread: ideally we would all be playing a game with the size and sophistication of Civilization with the in-depth battle mechanics of Total War, and the diplomatic complexity of Europa Universalis III. I suppose we will just have to wait until something of this diverse complexity becomes a profitable venture for the game developers.

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