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    Hearthstone

    Game » consists of 3 releases. Released Mar 11, 2014

    A Free-to-Play collectible card game by Blizzard Entertainment set in the Warcraft universe.

    We got nerfs here! We got card nerfs here!

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    Acura_Max

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    #1  Edited By Acura_Max

    Druids better hope those cthun decks are viable because they get hit with the nerf bat big time here. One card I was hoping to see nerfed was Divine Favor. I guess Blizzard believes that the number of cards Paladin has lost in standard mode will be enough. Other than that, I think they pretty much hit the nail on the head for the nerfs.

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    Blizzard Reasoning

    As the Year of the Kraken approaches, the time has come to reveal the results of our Basic and Classic card review. We focused on Basic and Classic cards because those sets will form the foundation of both formats for years to come. It took much careful consideration to arrive here, but we believe that—between our own analysis and reading plenty of community feedback—we’ve identified the right cards to change.

    There’s a simple guiding principle that underlies each of the changes you’re about to see: New card releases should have an impact on Standard and enrich Wild, to make sure that Hearthstone is always as dynamic, fresh, and fun as it can be.

    Read on for the details!

    Druid Cards

    The most popular Druid decks are consistently composed of the same big chunk of Druid cards. That puts a damper on deckbuilding creativity and has left the Druids feeling stagnant. We want to inject some life into Druid deckbuilding, so we’re adjusting some of the worst offenders.

    It’s important to point out that, in general, we like that Classes in Hearthstone have signature cards that appear in decks frequently, since they help give each Class its identity. We also still think it’s good for some signature Class cards to be in Druid decks, too. For example, Innervate and Wild Growth embody the Druid’s unique strength, so we’ve chosen not to adjust them.

    Ancient of Lore

    Drawing cards is powerful in Hearthstone, and Ancient of Lore easily found its way into nearly every popular Druid deck. We’d like Druid players to feel that other cards can compete with Ancient of Lore, so we’ve reduced the number of cards drawn from 2 to 1.

    Force of Nature

    The new version of Force of Nature lowers its mana cost by 1, but removes Charge and makes the summoned Treants permanent—like the other Treants that Druids summon. This change also removes the powerful one-turn combo of Force of Nature and Savage Roar. Now, opponents will have a chance to deal with the threat that the Treants represent, and it won’t feel mandatory to always include the combo.

    Keeper of the Grove

    Keeper of the Grove is a strong and versatile minion that combines Silence with solid stats, which made the decision to include it in every Druid deck virtually automatic. Whether or not to introduce a source of Silence to a deck should require some decision making, so Keeper of the Grove shouldn’t be a default choice for all Druid decks. Its stats have been changed from 2/4 to 2/2.

    Silence & Removal

    Speaking of Keeper of the Grove, Silence and minion removal are potent effects in Hearthstone. Currently, some removal options are too widely played, are attached to minions with efficient stats, or are simply too powerful. While removal is an important part of Hearthstone, it also makes playing big, exciting minions less rewarding. We are adjusting some of these cards so that the decision to add them to your deck comes with a cost, especially if you don’t end up finding an ideal target for them. These changes should help make cards with high attack or cool effects more interesting too.

    Ironbeak Owl

    Ironbeak Owl is a staple source for an inexpensive Silence in many decks. In line with our overall goal to make Silence effects more costly, Ironbeak Owl is moving from 2 to 3 mana.

    Big Game Hunter

    Big Game Hunter represents an inexpensive source of removal that is packaged with a minion. It’s efficient enough that some Heroes with powerful Class-based removal cards choose to run the neutral Big Game Hunter. We’re increasing the cost of the card from 3 mana to 5 mana.

    Hunter’s Mark

    Hunter’s Mark is an important option for Hunters, but it’s too efficient at 0 mana. We are increasing its cost to 1.

    Blade Flurry

    Blade Flurry is a problem because it enables both board clear and heavy burst damage, and it’s also an obstacle to adding better cards for Rogues. To address these issues, the cost of Blade Flurry is moving from 2 to 4 mana, and it will now only affect minions, so that Rogues have to choose between removing threats or damaging the enemy Hero.

    Powerful Neutral Minions

    Strong, widely-played neutral cards can stifle deck-building decisions and homogenize decks. These cards also make it more difficult to create new cards that can compete with them. We’re adjusting these neutral cards so that other cards can become compelling replacements, and open the door for more of a deck’s power to come from its Class identity.

    Knife Juggler

    Knife Juggler should be a good choice in decks that play many cheap minions, but with 3 Attack, it is played almost universally. We’re reducing Knife Juggler’s Attack from 3 to 2, so this card will move into a more specialized role in the decks that include it, instead of always being among the best choices for a 2 mana-cost minion.

    Leper Gnome

    Leper Gnome is powerful for its cost, finds its way into almost every aggressive deck, and requires no further deck building decisions to be effective. We’d like other 1 mana minions to be more compelling, so we’re reducing its Attack from 2 to 1.

    Arcane Golem

    Charge is an ability we’ve learned to use sparingly. Arcane Golem has been a staple in many aggressive and ‘one turn kill’ combo decks, and its drawback is rarely relevant. We’re addressing both issues by removing Charge and increasing Arcane Golem’s Health, while leaving its drawback. Arcane Golem will now be a 3 mana 4/4 with Battlecry: Give your opponent a Mana Crystal.

    Molten Giant

    Molten Giant is an interesting card, but it’s too easy for players to reduce its mana cost to 0. We’re increasing Molten Giant’s mana cost to 25 to increase the risks players must take to get a free Giant. The changes to Force of Nature and Arcane Golem will make dropping to low health somewhat less risky as well, which helped spur this change.

    Master of Disguise

    The ability of Master of Disguise to grant permanent Stealth has been a design obstacle for a long time, so we are changing Master of Disguise to only grant Stealth until the next turn. This change opens up exciting options for future cards.

    Thanks for reading along as we’ve explored the decisions that have shaped these cards. These changes will arrive as part of Hearthstone Patch 5.0. Then be sure to join us on April 26 for the arrival of Hearthstone’s newest expansion: Whispers of the Old Gods, the introduction of formats, and the beginning of the Year of the Kraken!

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    BisonHero

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    I've occasionally thought about trying to make a deck that used Master of Disguise to give something stealth, but it's limited by the fact that stuff loses stealth as soon as it deals damage, so even giving stealth to stuff like Demolisher or Ragnaros doesn't actually accomplish anything. The only things it seems very effective on are the Inspire cards like Nexus Champion Saraad or something, so I guess I'll take Blizzard's word for it that the nerf was necessary. It seems like a really narrow instance of mattering since it also only really affects Rogue decks, and Rogues have like zero good Inspire effects and there aren't a ton of neutral cards with good repeat effects unless you somehow get out Kel'Thuzad and master of disguise on the same turn or something.

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    PeezMachine

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    I'm on board with all of this except for Blade Flurry's cost. Given that it needs to eat some other cards (a nice weapon, maybe a buff) to be effective (and is useless if your haven't pulled those cards), 4 seems a little steep.

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    Acura_Max

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    @bisonhero: Master of Disguised has the same problem that Warsong Commander had. It limited the types of cards that Blizzard can put out. Animated Armor, for example, was supposed to be a neutral card, but it became a mage card because it would be broken with Master of Disguise.

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    Bobby_The_Great

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    #5  Edited By Bobby_The_Great

    I don't agree with the Keeper of the Grove nerf at all. A 2/3 maybe, but 2/2 for 4? Yikes. Knife Juggler nerf doesn't change much. The 3/2 isn't what made it so powerful, it's the fact that it throws knives. BGH being a 5 mana will still see play, as it takes out the big creatures. Arcane Golem is a neat change, but I doubt that will see play now. Maybe in arena only.

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    imsh_pl

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    I think I can get behind pretty much every one of those.

    If you consider the goal that the nerfs are supposed to fulfill - to reduce the viability of cards that either limit design space or are so good they are always included in their respective archetypes - I think they've done a great job.

    Ancient of Lore - Drawing 2 cards and a 5/5 body for 7 mana was definitely overpowered. Reducing the cards drawn to 1 is a big change, but one I think is very good. It could cost 6 mana because of that, but then the healing option would be too cheap. This means that now the card costs much more because of flexibility.

    Force of Nature - Druid Combo hurts the game, and just had to be dealt with in a severe manner. Blizzard has decided that means that it has to go completely, and I'm fine with that change. I'm really happy that the new Force of Nature is actually an interesting card for a not exactly currently viable Druid archetype, but still, it's something that encourages experimentation.

    Keepe of the Grove - Losing 2 defense is a big deal. However, Keeper was one of the cards that you just put into every Druid deck you play. The card is much, much worse now (possibly unplayable because of how badly it fares compared with Spellbreaker), but it still has flexibility that might turn out worth running in some Druid decks; not in all of them.

    Ironbeak Owl - A really healthy change. Effortless silence is an anti-fun mechanic. Yes, you can get +2/+2 stats for only one mana more, but that one mana might be difficult for some decks to spare, meaning you're going to see many decks just straight up skip any silence. Which ultimately makes the game more fun, I think.

    Big Game Hunter - Really, really, really big deal. Great change. I think a card like BGH still needs to exist for the sake of classes that just don't have big removal. I think for those classes the card might still be a possibility (if big minions are a real struggle for them). However, the dramatic cost increase means you can't get both removal and massive tempo that comes from playing a big minion of your own. And the problem with BGH was always how big of a tempo swing it is, not necessarily that it's good value card-for-card.

    Hunter's Mark - Makes sense. 0 mana cost cards can exist, but shouldn't be massive tempo swings for the sake of not breaking the game. Control Hunters will still run it, but it will no longer allow Hunters to both go with an on-curve play and remove a big enemy threat.

    Blade Flurry - This one's a bit much imo. The change to remove face damage is already severe; increasing the cost by not only 1 but 2 both make the card really weak, and are a huge blow to Rogue as a class. Would've preferred to see its cost either kept or changed to 3.

    Knife Juggler - Really great change. Juggler has always been too good because not only does it control the board, but it also has aggressive stats. After the change, the effect is still a strong board-controlling tool, but the minion itself has to be played more conservatively and protected.

    Leper Gnome - Also good. Leper Gnome routinely deals 4 or even 6 and more damage through the course of its lifespan. Additionally it usually straight up kills the defending player's two drop. The change means that the purpose of face damage is still there, but the card isn't also a good tempo play either. Happy to see the change.

    Arcane Golem - Don't really mind the fact that they are removing the card from the game.

    Molten Giant - 5 mana more is a huge deal, to the point that the card might even no longer see play. The difference between reducing your life to 10-15 and 5-10 means you're one burn spell closer to dying. That might turn out to be too uncomfortable for Handlock players. Good change, although feels like a bit much. Maybe 23?

    Master of Disguise - The card has always been limiting design space even though it was never played. It meant that you just can't have aura cards that are too strong. Happy to see it that it's no longer a shackle at the dev's feet.

    Great changes overall. Surprised they didn't decide to change Alex and ice Block which are very design restricting cards.

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    Atwa

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    #7  Edited By Atwa

    I think these are incredibly naive and kinda lazy changes.

    BGH will still be played, its not a card you play early anyway, its still an incredibly strong removal of ANY big minion, and has a body. Will not change much.

    Owl is similar, its just a way to remove taunts or other effects from the enemys minions, and will still be run.

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    BisonHero

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    I do think the Druid nerfs to Ancient of Lore and Keeper of the Grove are slightly excessive, especially in a class that is so neutered without the Force Savage combo.

    Old Ancient of Lore was like an Arcane Intellect (3 mana) and then a 5/5 for the remaining 4 mana. A vanilla 4 mana 5/5 would be strong as is, but throwing in 2 card draw for 3 mana is even more nuts. However, with the change, it's basically Gnomish Inventor (4 mana, 2/4, draw a card), but for 3 more mana you get 3/1 stats. This just in: 3/1 of stats does not cost 3 mana. It feels like they needed to adjust Ancient of Lore to a 5/6 or 6/5 to compensate for the nerf.

    Keeper of the Grove nerf seems like kinda the same deal. They don't want it to be a no brainier auto include, I get it, but now you're paying an insane premium just for the silence, and it's more like a no brainer don't bother including this card. Changing it to 2/3 seems like it would've been enough to slightly lower its inclusion rate in decks, but it seems like a lot of these balance changes were "hey let's nerf it into the ground" (Blade Flurry which I'm not OK with, Arcane Golem which I am), so now people might just give up on Keeper of the Grove's damage entirely and just run Spellbreaker instead.

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    PeezMachine

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    @atwa: The problem with BGH was that it was so cheap that you could clear AND drop a considerable minion. The cost increases the card's focus and reduces the size of the swing it can bring.

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    Ares42

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    I really don't understand the Hunters Mark change. Not the concept of it, but I don't really see how changing the mana cost by one will have any significant impact on the card. Also very surprised that they didn't address Alex. I guess to some extent they're trying to make the game more about board presence again, but leaving that card in the evergreen set will always make for this looming threat of super control decks with a single card win condition.

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    BisonHero

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    #11  Edited By BisonHero

    @peezmachine: "It’s efficient enough that some Heroes with powerful Class-based removal cards choose to run the neutral Big Game Hunter."

    Yo Blizz, I hate to break this to you, but BGH is still better than Assassinate, and it's still better than Naturalize/Recycle/Mulch. People are gladly still going to play BGH and not play their "powerful" Class-based removal cards. Especially when Mountain Giant/Alexstraza/Ragnaros still exist, unnerfed, and Handlock is still totally viable.

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    Tennmuerti

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    #12  Edited By Tennmuerti

    Wow. That's a big un.

    EDIT: Waaaaait a minute, that's it??? That's how BGH got nerfed? 2 mana? You've gotta be kidding me. RIP Old Gods, that card is still gonna get played, it's still a big body removal, a body by itself and still leaves you 5 mana during lategame (ie when big minions get played and need removal).

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    Atwa

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    #13  Edited By Atwa

    @peezmachine said:

    @atwa: The problem with BGH was that it was so cheap that you could clear AND drop a considerable minion. The cost increases the card's focus and reduces the size of the swing it can bring.

    The problem was that it has a body itself, compare it to cards like Recycle/Assassinate, which is 6 and 5 mana respectively to destroy/remove an enemy minion.

    BGH is still really good. And with the meta shifting to be slower which it seems, I think it will still be essential to run 1-2 in most decks.

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    MezZa

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    I'm not sure I'm quite satisfied with the BGH nerfs. It makes him a dead card against mid range and aggro decks, but who was playing him early against aggro decks anyway. He is always saved for late game and is still worth playing against any minions more expensive than him. I was hoping his nerf would be one that would allow for bigger minions to not be one shot as soon as they're played. If I play an old god for 10 mana, my opponent can just wipe it for half the mana cost and still get a body on the board while having 5 more mana to work with. It's still a huge momentum swing and I don't feel comfortable spending all of my mana on one minion as long as the card still exists like this. The cost is better at 5, but its still a card I can see everyone including. Any big minion that doesn't have immediate board effect is still going to suffer against this card. My only hope is that people don't want BGH in their hand anymore against other archetypes, so it gets run less.

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    PeezMachine

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    @bisonhero@atwa Oh I think we're all in the same boat here, saying that BGH still does the thing that Blizzard doesn't want it to do, which is occupy the high-end removal spot in most decks, but I think that says more about the high cost of cards like Assassinate than anything else. Hell, even up against Shadow Word: Death, it still has value, 2 extra mana for a 4/2 and a slightly more restrictive condition that doesn't matter most of the time.

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    BisonHero

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    "It’s important to point out that, in general, we like that Classes in Hearthstone have signature cards that appear in decks frequently, since they help give each Class its identity. We also still think it’s good for some signature Class cards to be in Druid decks, too. For example, Innervate and Wild Growth embody the Druid’s unique strength, so we’ve chosen not to adjust them."

    By that reasoning, I still think it's kind of insane that Cabal Shadow Priest received no changes. It's a 2x auto include in pretty much every Priest deck. You don't even have to think about it. It's Yeti, with an additional "2 mana to Mind Control a small minion of your choice"? That's about as ridiculous in value terms as Ancient of Lore, but for some reason no change at all. Don't nerf it into the ground, but she could stand to lose 1-2 stats or something.

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    BisonHero

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    #17  Edited By BisonHero

    @peezmachine: Yeah, my issue is that their stated goal was "BGH is competing with class removal cards", but not only was the 3-to-5 mana nerf necessary to even give those spells a chance, but they also needed to actually make some of those spells better in any way. They didn't make BGH any more restricting against 7+ attack minions AND they didn't make BGH bad enough that anybody is going to play Assassinate/Naturalize/Recycle/Mulch over BGH anymore than they already are. It's a little more punishing on the mana, but I don't think it's going to affect deck composition at all, and I don't think it's going to significantly hurt the win rate of the types of decks that run BGH. I just don't see what the BGH adjustment really accomplishes in any way.

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    recroulette

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    Knife Juggler keeps on juggling.

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    jakob187

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    1. Combo Druid is dead, and the nerfs they ate on this are horseshit. FoN was never the problem with the FoN/Roar combo. It was Savage Roar. THAT should've gotten the nerf to being 4 mana for +1 to all minions (not player character)...maybe even 5 mana. Ancient isn't worth it at 7 mana now. Keeper is super not worth it, especially when Ironbeak exists for 1 mana less. Sure, "options," but 2 damage isn't much of an option to me when silence is the portion that gets used the majority of times. FoN is just useless, period. They all die to a Holy Nova, a couple of Arcane Explosions, an Excavated Evil, even a super-nerfed Blade Flurry! Not worth the dust I'm going to get from both of them. Big Game Hunter, even as a 1-of in the deck, is too much for the tempo needs.

    So with all of that...plus Belcher rotating out, Dr. Boom rotating out, and Shade rotating out? Combo Druid is officially dead. You watched the death of an entire deck archetype happen, folks. It's horseshit. Yes, I'm saying this as someone who mainly played the Combo Druid deck,

    2. The Blade Flurry nerf is MASSIVE horseshit.

    3. No nerfs to Control Warrior at all? They get to keep all of their super cost-efficient high armor cards untouched? Bash? Shield Block? Armorsmith? Shieldmaiden (for Wild format)? Shield Slam gets to stay at 1 mana? Fucking...stupid... Seriously, look at this breakdown of the Druid nerfs by comparison of Control Warrior:

    • Ancient of Lore is a 7-drop 5/5 that gives either a card draw or 5 health. Shieldmaiden is a 6 drop 5/5 that gives 5 artificial health on TOP of regular health.
    • Keeper of the Grove is a 4-drop 2/2 that gives either 2 damage or a minion silence. Armorsmith is a 2-drop 1/4 that gives armor to the hero every time a friendly minion is damaged, including by your own shit.
    • Force of Nature has no comparison to Control Warrior, but what Control Warrior DOES have is Bash for 3 mana that deals 3 damage and gives 3 armor, Shield Block for 5 mana that gives 5 armor and a card draw, and Shield Slam for 1 mana that hits a minion equal to the amount of armor you have...WITHOUT LOSING THE ARMOR!

    So Druid gets poorly nerfed while Artificial Life Master Xtreme 9000 Control Warrior gets to keep stacking up the shiny plate until the cows come home? It's pretty much horseshit how unbalanced THOSE cards are, but they don't get touched at all.

    4. The AG nerf, Leper nerf, Knife Juggler nerf and Mad Scientist rotation hurts Face Hunter too much. I don't know if that deck is going to be able to survive, but there is hope. Nonetheless, I think Beast Hunter becomes the meta for them anyways, as Call of the Wild is fucking absurd! Princess Huhuran is also really powerful, so I can see Beast Hunter being a really solid midrange deck.

    5. I'm fine with Blizzard wanting to slow aggro down a little bit, but this ISN'T the way you do it...at all. All of this just feels like "we want the eSports side of Hearthstone to have matches that last a little longer for people to watch." If someone can put together a fast-as-fuck deck, then the hivemind of the community needs to find a way to counter it. If they cannot, then it means that the developer/designer of the game has failed at creating a balanced project. For being the company that made the original StarCraft, which was widely considered for eons to be the most balanced fucking game ever, this stuff is just shocking to me.

    I'm going to keep playing, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be enjoying it very much. I see a lot of decks just shoving Naga Sea Witch into them for the cheaper 10-drop bombs, midrange hunters and dragon priests becoming ridiculously strong, and control warrior becoming a dominant force. C'Thun still doesn't seem worthwhile to me, so I'm hoping that I'm wrong about that so we can at least see something new.

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    Nime

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    #20  Edited By Nime

    Mostly fine with everything.

    A lot of people are upset about Blade Flurry but I'm waiting to see the new cards. They obviously did this to prepare for a new weapon or poison that would have made it completely busted. Really need to see the rest of the new set before I really put my thoughts together.

    I'm sad that Divine Favor and Alexstrasza didn't get nerfed though.

    Also get fucked Druid players.

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    imsh_pl

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    #21  Edited By imsh_pl

    @bisonhero said:

    By that reasoning, I still think it's kind of insane that Cabal Shadow Priest received no changes. It's a 2x auto include in pretty much every Priest deck. You don't even have to think about it. It's Yeti, with an additional "2 mana to Mind Control a small minion of your choice"? That's about as ridiculous in value terms as Ancient of Lore, but for some reason no change at all. Don't nerf it into the ground, but she could stand to lose 1-2 stats or something.

    The only reason Cabal is prevalent is because the meta is ripe with targets for it. It's also a situational card and is useless against most control decks. It's not nearly as consistently powerful as Keeper or Ancient of Lore.

    @mezza said:

    The cost is better at 5, but its still a card I can see everyone including. Any big minion that doesn't have immediate board effect is still going to suffer against this card. My only hope is that people don't want BGH in their hand anymore against other archetypes, so it gets run less.

    I think that's the idea. BGH is supposed to be a tech card against control. That's fine. If you don't get punished for running a card against bad matchups and the card is insane against others, it's probably overpowered.

    Making BGH cost two more means that running him diminishes your decks capability of dealing with decks that have little or no targets for him. It also now only provides a value advantage instead of a value and tempo advantage.

    Look at Flare. When it cost one it was run everywhere. At worst it's a 1 mana cantrip, at best it provides a massive tempo and value swing in your favor. It only took increasing its cost by one to make it unplayable, precisely because, while still being good against certain decks, it's actually a liability against others.

    It also opens up the option to use class removal. Polimorph, Siphon Soul, Mulch are now become a more viable option, and classes that already have great hard removal may choose to skip BGH because it's not worth it for the massive tempo loss.
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    Noelle808

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    On the bright side, I only have to worry about 8 classes now.

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    weapongod30

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    #23  Edited By weapongod30

    @imsh_pl said:

    Arcane Golem - Don't really mind the fact that they are removing the card from the game.

    Top kek. Also, I agree. Who in their right mind is going to pay 3 mana for a 4/4 that gives your opponent a crystal? Hell even if it only cost 2 mana with the same effect, it might not see play.

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    BisonHero

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    #24  Edited By BisonHero

    @weapongod30 said:

    @imsh_pl said:

    Arcane Golem - Don't really mind the fact that they are removing the card from the game.

    Top kek. Also, I agree. Who in their right mind is going to pay 3 mana for a 4/4 that gives your opponent a crystal? Hell even if it only cost 2 mana with the same effect, it might not see play.

    But Dancing Swords and Felguard are such beloved cards! Everyone loves a 3 mana minion with 8 stat points that throws the game!

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    weapongod30

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    #25  Edited By weapongod30

    @weapongod30 said:

    @imsh_pl said:

    Arcane Golem - Don't really mind the fact that they are removing the card from the game.

    Top kek. Also, I agree. Who in their right mind is going to pay 3 mana for a 4/4 that gives your opponent a crystal? Hell even if it only cost 2 mana with the same effect, it might not see play.

    But Dancing Swords and Felguard are such beloved cards! Everyone loves a 3 mana minion with 8 stat points that throws the game!

    Ah yes, Dancing Swords and Felguard, Hearthstone's version of "you can't fire me, I quit!"

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    BisonHero

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    #26  Edited By BisonHero

    @imsh_pl said:

    @bisonhero said:

    By that reasoning, I still think it's kind of insane that Cabal Shadow Priest received no changes. It's a 2x auto include in pretty much every Priest deck. You don't even have to think about it. It's Yeti, with an additional "2 mana to Mind Control a small minion of your choice"? That's about as ridiculous in value terms as Ancient of Lore, but for some reason no change at all. Don't nerf it into the ground, but she could stand to lose 1-2 stats or something.

    The only reason Cabal is prevalent is because the meta is ripe with targets for it. It's also a situational card and is useless against most control decks. It's not nearly as consistently powerful as Keeper or Ancient of Lore.

    Has there ever been an era where that wasn't the case? Where it wasn't prevalent, because there somehow wasn't always some 2-attack deathrattle to steal, or some decent 2/3 or 2/4 to steal? I really can't recall one.

    Yeah, it's less of a big swing against a control deck because losing their small minion isn't super relevant if they also put a big minion on the board, but it's really high value for what it costs, and is very much a "not even a choice, just autoinclude 2 copies", even if you know there are one or two deck archetypes it's merely OK against. It doesn't seem healthy for Priest as a class that you don't really have to think twice about including Cabal every time.

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    BisonHero

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    @noelle808 said:

    On the bright side, I only have to worry about 8 classes now.

    I mean, do you really ever have to worry about Shaman?

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    Noelle808

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    *Plays Arcane Golem on turn 3*

    *Opponent, who now has 4 mana instead of 3, plays a Yeti*

    Nice

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    imsh_pl

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    @bisonhero: I would say the biggest reason why I think Cabal isn't the same category as Keeper of the Grove let's say is because it's very much a reactive card that is straight up bad in certain matchups. Yes it is excellent against aggro, but worse against midrange and control. It's also not as big of a swing against say a midrange deck, and won't alone save you from dying.

    Keeper on the other hand while being reactive (because you have to have a target) is much, much more consistent. It's never a dead card against almost any matchup. The silence is super good against control, the 2 damage is a great tempo swing against aggro (and I would strongly disagree that it's run just for the silence). It's always reliable and super flexible. In almost any game of Hearthstone there is a point where you can use 2 damage or silence.

    Besides, I don't think it's that outrageous if Priest has a card that wrecks aggro. The whole class wrecks aggro. I don't think it's particularly wrong if a certain class has great tools at dealing with a certain archetype. Even if Cabal wasn't in the game I still think Priest would be highly favored in all aggro matchup. It's the same way with how Warrior has great tools against combo decks because of armor.

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    deactivated-60481185a779c

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    As someone who mainly plays Priest, I welcome all of these changes.

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    planetfunksquad

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    That blade flurry nerf is total shite. Fuck.

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    Drebin_893

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    I came here for the thread title. Amazing work.

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    AlKusanagi

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    This is really going to change things in Arena. So many of these were automatic pick cards in the draft.

    I don't think Big Game Hunter needs it though since it can often be your only real source of removal for many decks.

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    zombie2011

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    Loving it! This expansion is going to change the meta so much! Was hoping for a bigger nerf on BGH tough.

    Would have liked to have seen that ability to kill Big minions assigned to a Legendary so that only one could be run in a deck.

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    MezZa

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    #35  Edited By MezZa

    @zombie2011 said:

    Loving it! This expansion is going to change the meta so much! Was hoping for a bigger nerf on BGH tough.

    Would have liked to have seen that ability to kill Big minions assigned to a Legendary so that only one could be run in a deck.

    That wouldn't change much honestly. It's a tech card. People really only run 1 BGH. Last I saw at least. I only remember one point in time when people ran 2 consistently and that was when handlock and taunt druid were stronger threats. I haven't paid as much attention after TGT though so I might be wrong.

    @imsh_pl said:
    @mezza said:

    The cost is better at 5, but its still a card I can see everyone including. Any big minion that doesn't have immediate board effect is still going to suffer against this card. My only hope is that people don't want BGH in their hand anymore against other archetypes, so it gets run less.

    I think that's the idea. BGH is supposed to be a tech card against control. That's fine. If you don't get punished for running a card against bad matchups and the card is insane against others, it's probably overpowered.

    Making BGH cost two more means that running him diminishes your decks capability of dealing with decks that have little or no targets for him. It also now only provides a value advantage instead of a value and tempo advantage.

    Look at Flare. When it cost one it was run everywhere. At worst it's a 1 mana cantrip, at best it provides a massive tempo and value swing in your favor. It only took increasing its cost by one to make it unplayable, precisely because, while still being good against certain decks, it's actually a liability against others.

    It also opens up the option to use class removal. Polimorph, Siphon Soul, Mulch are now become a more viable option, and classes that already have great hard removal may choose to skip BGH because it's not worth it for the massive tempo loss.

    True. I'm just worried it's not going to be enough of a change for people to care about throwing 1 in every deck. But I'm also more of a control player so I'm biased in wanting to see that card fall. I feel like most classes will still skip their spell removal anyway because there is no body attached. We'll see how the meta falls though. I'm not great enough at predicting where it will swing to make a hard judgment on the nerf.

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    Fredchuckdave

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    #36  Edited By Fredchuckdave

    Every relevant rogue deck is dead practically, except for Raptor Rogue. Hopefully Control Rogue works.

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    robowitch

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    The only one that really passes comment for me is Knife Juggler, wee bit of a question as to whether this minor tweak will do enough to it. I'd imagine this might be the lightest touch Blizzard could give to it and will wreck it entirely if it ever rears its problematic head again.

    (I'm also interested to see how much this BGH change shakes things up. Hopefully a bunch!)

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    Acura_Max

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    Nerfs are online right now!

    Also, Blizzard just said that once the expansion hits you are more likely to be awarded the most recent expansion pack in arena. So you are more likely to get a Whispers of the Old God pack in arena than a classic pack. That's pretty good for veteran players who are more likely to play arena.

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    Noelle808

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    Ah finally, time to ditch all these cards and then regret it when Wild gets really crazy in a year.

    *Turns on the dust faucet*

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    MezZa

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    #40  Edited By MezZa

    Just on initial impressions I'm really enjoying the nerfs as a dragon priest. Can't really try any other decks that I want to use til the cards hit tomorrow, but so far things are looking good.

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    Acura_Max

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    So far the nerfs have really hurt midrange druid and face hunter. You don't see them on ladder. So people are either too afraid to play them or they are no longer viable. Though in face hunter's case, not many people were playing that deck anyway.

    As for zoolock and secret paladin, the knife juggler nerf had a relatively minor effect. It turns out that you don't want knife juggler in your early game since you can't combo with implosion. And knife juggler into muster for battle is really hard to pull since knife juggler is killed off early in most cases.

    The molten giant nerf is also having little effect on renolock since the few remaining renolock players just rotate it out.

    But on the bright side, hopefully this means that Blizzard has more room to play around with mechanics.

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