CNET's Jeff Bakalar's spoiler-free review of The Last of Us Part II

Having read Rob's review at Waypoint, it also seems that the game pull from a lot of standard revenge fiction and doesn't do much new with it. Which is fine, but hearing the game is 30 hours does make me say "But like, how does that story take 30 hours?"

Also, to reiterate, maybe they're right. Maybe this game doesn't say anything that it already said back in 2013. Maybe it's not different enough (although I was a defender of what Hotline Miami 2 tried differently, and people didn't seem to like it). Maybe it pushes how it shows its violence way too far in a way that's just abject. After all, I was not the biggest fan of The Last of Us either; it was solid, yes, but one the best games ever? No, not really (Killer7 and WarioWare are still at the top of the list for me).

Maybe they're right. Truth is, I still don't trust Polygon, Waypoint, Vice, Gamespot, Giant Bomb, Eurogamer, or any other video game outlet when it comes to a game's narrative themes, how they are expressed through gameplay, or video game theory in general. Truth is, I don't even trust video game developers on that either! Make no mistake, video games are still very much immature and closed-in, no matter how much they want you to believe otherwise. Like a rebellious teenager who desperately want to sit at the adults' table, with grand and hopelessly naive visions of the world. I used to believe in this medium, when I was younger; I don't believe in it so much anymore.

Eh...I'm of the opinion having a classic ending with marvel movie stakes doesn't always equate to Consumer-friendly Slock. Many scuffs at games for doing what games do cause they say of course you'll get a turret section etc. Then they overlook the hundreds of what people negatively call walking simulators that have entire endings full of slower thoughtful endings. No big twist, no revelations, no hook, just character emotions. Hell even Gone home was a game where you have a slow story-driven experience and cause the character was +++ or the game was a walker or just not appealing story-wise (simple) or interest (gameplay) many consumers scuffed at it when getting high scores from critics.

The biggest issue is the divide critics and players have. Critics are dying for originality and need a jump of adrenalin in the form of creativity since they see so much more than audiences. They also hate long experiences cause it eventually bores them as they need to speed through them for review and everything comes off as a slog if its 20 or so hours.

Audiences are generally buying less and ok with a chill longer game. They also don't play so much and are ok if a few tropes are used heavily in a story etc.

Finally, I'm not as impressed by the few negative reviews people have thrown on message boards to showcase the game isn't "THAT GOOD" I think people forget that a review has more than its score and even the negative reviews confirm what the positive reviews are saying. The negative reviews most often read like the person was never gonna like the game in the first place unless the entire paradigm shifted and the game was something entirely different to the fans. I like it better that it didn't try conform and keep everyone happy with a less violent and happier take cause our current times. It presented a message and used a story to tell it even if "intellectuals" will be reductive and say its "violennce iZ BUD....WOOPIE revenge doesn't work, eye for an eye." It's about the implementation of ideas.

A popular anime Hunter x hunter had one of its most popular arcs that were also it's most violent. It had a similar take that we become the villain we hate. On paper, that's easy to dismiss but in execution, it was a layered story even with the marvel esc final showdown appearing somewhere near the end.

@zoofame: I think you're giving too much credit to the negative reviews. Most people over-inflate how precious a negative review was cause they must know or see something special to dislike the lauded classic. Like people who notice how bad Casablanca is or how everyone can tell you Avatar is just fern gully.

I think the dislike of characters in games doing what the plot dictates are annoying. I'm happy games can tell a story on their terms once again. Too many pseudo RPGs where you can work your way into an ending you approve of. Its like people who get mad that protagonist in a horror movie don't listen to them to not open the door! That said for the sake of argument, Witcher 3 was able to be dark and still allow character choice in their matters while also making no choice the "GOOD ONE" so I see why someone coming into last of us would hate the fact the story is about doing bad while telling you its bad yet giving you no way to stop being bad. I akin it to a movie about racism in which you're revolted by the protagonist doing racist acts and finally see them come around in the last 20 minutes of the movie. Its to prove a theme but when you already notice them you'll get turned off by it not doing the twist hours earlier. American X comes to mind, which many learned from but someone who's put off by the entire first part, you'll get less out of it.

Thus the violence does in my opinion affect some reviewer scores since they mention wanting a way to circumvent it and change the narrative. Obviously it's more nuanced than that but I'm still of the opinion outlets like polygon wouldn't like the game regardless and as a review, it's not useful for a gamer who had an interest in the game and was fine with a violence themed story. Polygon's review only helps to do the thing I hate, and that's fuel useless debate by the few non-fans to say the game is BAD and people are dumb for liking it or something you'll see in LOU2 is overrated Reddit. Reviews these days have taken the approach that its a review of only the reviewer's taste to heart that it seems so personal, I don't get why people put so much stakes in a negative one. For comparison, some older youtube video reviews from Gamespot made sure to highlight that "if you're a person that likes ___ you'll enjoy this ___ I found it annoying but I can see why tons of people will like ___. __ was a confusing gameplay aspect but if your __ you'd like it. Now its Shenmue 3 is outdated and slow I disliked it. Should have kept up with the times 4/10. Fans buy it and scratch their heads cause its how they wanted it even if it's outdated. Thus its all become too one way or the other for my taste.

All of this discussion about the TLOU 2 has made me more interested in playing the game than any of the pre-release trailers did. I think there has to be a space for games/media about "bad people" or characters who don't live by the assumed values of the player because, but the divide on this game seems to be whether this game has anything more to say than the first game did.

I'm not surprised that Maddy Myers and Rob Zacny don't think much of the game considering neither of them seems to care about spectacle very much, but I like that this game is capable of coaxing such different reactions out of people.

When he said "It's allllright" on the Beastcast I smiled so wide. Real good simple summation.

Avatar isn’t fern gully, it’s dances with wolves in space, intergalactic exportation of a white savior edition. That movie rules because of how stupid it is. As Taswell said “That robot has a real tiny knife.” I adore that big, dump, move about native Americans in space.

Of course people are were able to discuss how flipping stupid Avatar is after the movie left theaters. This is why critique isn’t much fun to discuss while the hype cycle is ongoing. Especially when the game isn’t out yet. Once everyone plays is, loves or hates it, folks who want to can move onto figuring out why they feel the way they feel. Like how people are looking back at the Last of Us prime and thinking that the, world building, voice actors and music might have made that game what it was. Not the script.

@captain_insano: That opinion is not corny at all. Having a daughter at the time of The Last of Us really had me tearing up in the very beginning.

@plan6: I absolutely hated the criticism surrounded Avatar, as if other blockbusters weren't just repackaged editions of other films/stories. I'm also not going to say that Avatar was the greatest, but I had fun with it partly because of how familiar it was.

@zoofame: I'm not saying different opinions are useless. Fans for fans isn't it either, but your take of nuance cause you have a bunch of disinterested people over critic stuff they would never like is not necessarily constructive to someone purchasing it without those hang-ups. If you also had no interest in the themes or trailers etc and just wanna hear dissenting opinions that's fine. It can help validate not getting the game but using that to sour your opinion before playing seems poor taste. I'll give you an example of where I'm coming from. My mother hates movies, she also has no interest in long stories or television. She can only enjoy something without a strong plot, something she can watch an episode of then jumps off and back on in 4 months if she wants. Her opinion on whether Citizens Kane uses dutch angles in filming to represent themes is valid, but not as vital to the decision of me recommending the movie than say, someone who appreciates that stuff. Non-fans of a thing are hard to please and could help other nonfans but when it comes down to it, someone just deciding to jump halfway into a narrative and declare it dumb, well that's not as vital to my purchasing decision and those pools of discussion become circles of hating cause its popular. Nothing will ever be flawless cause someone somewhere thinks all media should be ___. Their opinion isn't as high stakes as people make it seem. I never condone just saying opinions are useless. I couldn't care less if the game does well. Last of Us is a below-average story and has good voice acting and graphics to get it by with slow sluggish and repetitive gameplay and environments. Does my opinion make the game bad or good? I feel piling on negatives somehow makes people think their opinion holds more merits just cause others are so positive. Taken another way last of us is a smartly written, character study that forgoes gameplay for a narrative stake in the player's enjoyment. This is all my opinion of course and yours is as valid and since my take holds no water for you, you can ignore it and keep your stance on the game's merits.

@kemuri07: To what end? Saw pushes people past their comfort zone, but there has to be a point, otherwise you're just mired in nihilism.

The Waypoint Radio episode from Friday made it sound like it certainly doesn't have much of one.

@bladeofcreation: I’m very much of multiple minds when it comes to the game not giving you a choice and then making you feel bad.

On the one hand, yeah it seems like a lazy story writing contrivance. I understand that you aren’t necessarily writing a game with multiple branches but maybe sometimes you’re just writing for the wrong medium if you aren’t willing to embrace the a mechanic so singular to games that can have such a lingering effect as choice.

On another hand, I don’t know that choices in video games have ever affected me emotionally outside of some early Walking Dead stuff (which was quickly revealed to be illusory anyway), so maybe choice isn’t all it’s cracked up to be or had yet to be harnessed well.

I remember when Spec Ops: The Line came out and when the writer got asked why there was no option to not fire the infamous white phosphorous, he said that there was; you, as the player, stop playing the game and you’re done.

At the time I remember thinking that was a pretty weak answer but the older I get and the more I reckon with decisions to play games in spite of how they will make me feel, the more I think he was totally onto something.

This looks like a game where we’re all going into it knowing that we’re going to be doing some pretty gnarly shit and if that’s not something we want to deal with, we can just not play the game. We can see people in this very thread making that choice in real time. I guess it’s about meeting the artists on their terms.

@shaanyboi: I'm pretty sure they said the game just hammers home the notion that "you become what you hate" over and over again.

You mean that humans are the real monsters, not the zombies?

@trulyalive See with spec ops it has that one big moment where it really makes you question what you've been doing throughout the whole game. The game builds up to it, whereas Last of us 2 just keeps rubbing your nose in it and insists on reminding you at every turn that Ellie is doing bad things.

@socuteboss: Well, have you played TLOU2? Also, Spec Ops totally did rub your nose in every bad thing you did. To the point that the games loading screens outright called you out for being a bad person.


@shaanyboi:Well...The first Saw is completely different from the others in that it doesn't really glorify the violence that the sequels ended up doing. Also: Nihilism absolutely can be a point unto itself and there are plenty of compelling works that prove that. From Cormac McCarthy's novels like Blood Meridian and The Road, to films from directors like Lars Von Trier.

@trulyalive: I remember the devs saying that about Spec Ops, but I've always thought it was a cop-out. It's one of two things about that game that I really didn't care for, although I still believe it is the best representation of combat PTSD we are likely to see in a AAA video game (even if it was imperfect).

The Walking Dead is exactly the game I point to when I talk about this trope. Near the end of the first season, an NPC you just met reiterates your choices and criticizes you, even for choices you didn't make. There was a specific choice I made that, when I brought up the fact that I DIDN'T do something, the NPC says that I didn't stop the other characters from doing it. It rubbed me the wrong way and made me think that some writer was trying to be clever, but it really didn't work in the context of the scene.

Different people are gonna interpret art in different ways. What one person views as a condemnation of the character, another may view as condemnation of the player. In the cases I'm talking about, I feel like the writers were talking to the player, rather than talking about the characters.

@humanity: I don't know; I've said this before and knee jerk reactions that a game tackles a taboo subject or tackles a subject you've heard before so it MUST be cliche trope middling stuff is off. Well, all know when we play it. That said it's about execution and people rely too heavily on the idea that some subjects are so done or excessive that they aren't worth time.

Hunter x Hunter (spoiler) did the whole you become the monster your fighting and it was obviously a done already premise but in execution tons of well made symbolic themes and points were made in a not so black and white manner. I won't explain for fear of spoiling it more in case someone (i doubt it) on this site also knows of that show.

The excessive change of extreme violence helped tell the story. Nihilism isn't something to just get put off by cause it makes general audiences uncomfortable. Sometimes uncomfortable media pushes the art form and opens up a discussion that more easy to enjoy material does not. not saying last of us is good or bad just that we can temper our pitchforks for thinking the story is too this or that. If it actually is too much for you then make peace, don't buy it, tell others who would be put off by it to not buy it as well.

Nihilism can have a point, but nihilism for 30 hours sounds exhausting.

It puts authorial intent beyond doubt as well.

The most troubling thing about the last of us discourse are the people who think Joel was a good guy.

@efesell: agreed. I enjoy Joel as a character, but he is a monster. I don’t agree with the take that he is the villain is that game, because the information about we get from the text documents confirm Ellie is not the first immune person that has been experimented on. But people thinking he is good missed a lot of what that game was putting down. At best he is someone who spent at lot of time burying the best parts of himself.

i mean- the whole thrust of the game (to say nothing of effectiveness or sophistication) is to challenge binaries. anyone who approaches that narrative by putting characters into tidy 'good' and 'bad' categories i'd argue has a distorted perspective.

I like crying

I mean, you can be kind and say he's damaged but there is nobody trying to change things for the better. Ellie is raised in his image and she took that all in. I don't think there's a likeable character left in that world.

I don’t wanna make a thread about this but without spoiling anything, can anyone tell me how far in the “sexual content/nudity” thing comes in? My younger sister wants to watch the beginning of the game but she wouldn’t feel comfortable watching that.

@frostyryan: Dunno how much you need to know, I've played two hours so far and it has not happened yet.

The only sexual content right now has been that Ellie and Dina kissed and it is implied they had sex, but it wasn't shown.

@fear_the_booboo: that helps, thank you!

@frostyryan: Some same sex kissing in the beginning if your younger sister is made uncomfortable about that, the nudity and overt sex happens much later.

I disagree with any positive review. The graphics and gameplay are top notch, but most of us care about TLAU for the story and characters - they did an AWFUL job with that in this game. Probably the most disappointed I've been in a game. Just about all "video game critics" are once again in unison when it comes to an AAA game, just parroting each other.

There's something more sexual later. I believe it happens on a boat.

To quote the TV show The 100: "maybe there are no good guys"

I think SOME of the critiques of the story come from people that don't understand how much trauma damages and ruins people and dont realize how much that messes with your ability to process and react to things. They might also have a more positive / hopeful view of humanity than the game presents, a view that past few weeks of RL pandemic, protest, counter-protest police insanity of cured me of ever believing.