Ok so just finished Bayonetta for the first time (Switch Version) and I feel incredible split and like I just have to share this bullshit somewhere!

The core fighting feels great and technically the Switch version runs wonderfully. Having the game rate you after every substantial combat encounter felt like a super neat motivation to play better and smarter. But man does some stuff annoy me.

First off the obvious, just how fucking horny is the game is for Bayonetta? The camera angles and her skimpy outfits and poses feel lame. Stop staring at her ass/tits/groin.

I also at time felt like the camera was a real pain during gameplay, especially during some boss fights and the vehicle sections. In fact, fuck the vehicle sections, or at least give me an option to skip them. They don't do anything interesting mechanically and they go on forever. In fact, swear to god doing the barrel roll on that one level made me nauseous.

All the qtes.... The timing on them felt incredible short and I reckon I messed up like 90% of them the first time they pop up.

And then that "turret sequence/boss fight"...

Atm, all of this stuff holds me back from loving it and grabbing the second one..

The second game has far less bullshit in regards to vehicle sections and cheap QTE's and is a much tighter game overall but it isnt any less horny. (If it makes you feel better Ms. Bayonetta seems into it, and I think the game would be much less enjoyable if it shyed away from the action so to speak)

I respect the original Bayonetta far more than I actually like it. I just got done replaying it for the third time since it’s release and my feelings on it haven’t really changed. It’s drab and it’s filled with far too many design decisions than annoy me too much to ever really like it. The second game however, is incredible! I played it on Wii U when it was first released and it is still my favourite game for that system.

The Switch version runs better and has just reminded me how much I love it. It is much more colourful, it has way more (and better) weapons, and it smooths out the rough edges of the original Bayonetta and refines it into a much better experience overall.

My one complaint with it though...I hate the squirrel kid with a burning passion and every time he’s in a cutscene, I want to die. I also think the story is weaker overall but it’s not that big of a deal.

I've begun to wonder if people who say they are offended by sexy characters in games are actually personally offended by them, or have just been conditioned into believing they must express offense at literally any display of sexiness in order to be considered a "socially responsible" person. Well, whatever.

FWIW, as a person who happens to enjoy pandering characters in game, I didn't get anything from Bayonetta in that regard at all. Her proportions are so weird that there wasn't any kind of lizard brain physical attraction there. To me her "sexiness" is played up 100% for comedic effect, not to pander, and I think succeeds to that end.

As far as the gameplay goes - yeah as a mild fan of "character action games", I'll have to say I was a little disappointed when I played the out-of-nowhere PC port a few months back. I'm sure my expectations were set a little too high, but I got about half-way through on normal and started to get fed up with it. The game wasn't too hard, I just wasn't feeling particularly rewarded for the effort I had to invest. I ended up putting the game on easy mode with the auto-combos and found it a lot more enjoyable to just breeze through the game for the spectacle.

@sweetz: I've begun to wonder if you have some sort of app that notifies you if a select number of words are used on a post here because these seem to be the only topics you engage in.

They're allowed to feel how they feel. Way to be as douchey as humanly possible in addressing that aspect of it.

ANYWAY, I love the games. Love them. Love her, she's great, if absurd. It's uncomfortable at times when my partner enters the room but whatever. And yes, the 2nd is significantly better than the 1st in almost all respect (save horniness). The only real complaint I've had about the games is the boss fight(s) at the end of 1.

I played the first game for like 15 minutes in front of my girlfriend a few years back. She eventually turned to me and went "Really dude?"

I was so embarrassed that I turned the game off and never played the series ever again. I can't handle Japanese horn dog stuff in video games, it drives me insane.

Don't be so defensive. And I would argue that there is MUCH more room for douchey activity than what this guy is saying. He hardly registers on the scale. Like, if there was a way to measure the amount of doucheyness that a person could express in rergards to this topic, he's not even at the halfway point. Perhaps he should be allowed to express his opinion without being called a douche after the first post? To say that he is as douchey as humanly possible seems like hyperbole and makes me question the rest of your post.

@sethmode: Geez duder.

@crazybagman: Fair enough. I just endured a lot of his antics around GOTY and I suppose it boiled over here. Apologies to you and to him. I went a little overboard. (Edit: a lot overboard having reread my post. Sorry again).

The horniness of Bayonetta has always felt like everyone involved was in on a really stupid and fun joke and never an earnest attempt to titillate anyone, it's great.

Currently I think Bayonetta 2 still embodies the height of the genre, really looking forward to playing it again on Switch when I can.

Nope, I only happened to be checking the board because I posted some thoughts upon finishing Gravity Rush 2, but in general yes I think the current trend of attacks on sexiness in game is absurd and misguided.

They're free to feel how they feel unless the way a person feels is that they like sexy characters, in which it's ok to call them a misogynistic pervert for having a pretty typical sex drive, right?

I think humans can be much more douchey than expressing skepticism of something that is a very recent social trend, but you need to get your insults in to devalue me as a person, I get it.

@sweetz: what an incredibly patronizing thing to say. That something doesn’t bother you at all doesn’t mean someone bothered by it is just acting out. Jeez, do realize that other people have other experiences and can react differently to stuff you enjoy.

I’m someone who loves Bayonetta 2 and will even defend its portrayal of sexuality as the protagonist owns it. There’s still some stuff that rubs me the wrong way in it and I understand that it is too much for some people.

Anyway for OP’s question, I think the sequel is a much much better game. That being said, the game is still very much horny and I personally find the cutscenes a tad too omnipresents. I’d still try it if I were you.

Why would you not get both from the start? Isn't there a deal with the combo?

Well, I still apologize for my post, even though this response to it makes me wonder why.

The goofy, tongue-in-cheek hyper-sexiness is still on full blast in Bayonetta 2. That's part of the territory I'm afraid. If it makes you feel any better, I think the story is a bunch of dumb, overwhelming nonsense and would possibly advocate just skipping all of the cutscenes (Press L2 and - at the same time) if the first game's story didn't do anything for you.

That said all of your problems with the gameplay are more or less addressed. Bayonetta 2 is way more refined and forgiving than the first game, with more fun weapons and significantly fewer vehicle sequences or QTEs. I finished it again today on Switch and it remains one of my favorite games of the last 5 years, so if you like yourself some character action it's still one of the best out there... not that there's exactly been much in the way of competition since it came out.

Not acting out, following a fashionable trend. I'm just getting old and spent too much time witnessing people, especially younger ones, follow social trends far more frequently than they form their own opinions. I've also witnessed people who were in this industry over decade ago and didn't bat an eye at, perhaps even celebrated, sexiness in games, now suddenly, within the past couple years express offense at it. Rationally, what do you think is the reasonable explanation of human behavior, that seemingly overnight a typical straight guy truly changed how he feels about completely fictional sexualized depictions of women in game, or rather he feels he now needs to express offense on behalf of others because it is socially trendy for him to do so?

Anyway it was just a generalized rhetorical question dredged up by OP's post, because unlike say Nier where the character is legit sexy, I just find it weird that some people think Bayonetta is this grossly pandering game, when I doubt there are many people really going to that game because "woohoo titties." Probably left over sauce from Abby's comments on the game too. I wish she would play them and form her own opinion on the subject; if she's still upset by it, fair enough.

Sorry to start a bunch of sociopolitical crap in your thread OP. I agree with your points on the gameplay, not on the pandering.

When I read of the top ten debate about Nier 2, ( I was watching but turned the discussion for top ten off because of the whole comments thing) I wondered about Bayonetta. For myself though, besides my definitely sometime getting Nier 2 , is that I would not have any puerile thoughts for Bayonetta. Because every video and QL I have seen of her grates me like nails on a chalkboard. She's sexy... I suppose, but her whole act is like virtual castration, for me. It's like her whole demeanor is set to like maximum annoyance.

But hey, it's a big world. And Bayonetta is a popular protagonist in what seems well made video games. And for the top ten list I was rooting for Horizon; Zero Dawn, to my own surprise actually.

I'd say there is a difference between a game with a sexy character and a game that is horny for a character. Bayonetta is firmly in the former camp.

@sweetz: See, acting like you know better than Abby and that she’d change her mind if she’d played more is just so condescending towards her.

Abby’s right on both games. They’re pandering and use the sexiness of their character. It doesn’t bother you? Fine. It bothers her and plenty of people, they’re also entitled to it.

I’ve finished both games and was bothered by some of it. Playing more wouldn’t change her mind more because she’s right about it. It’s her own feelings at the end of the day.

Don’t act like you know better than other people. You don’t understand why people are bothered by that kind of sexiness in games? Just genuinely inform yourself about it. It’s not just a trend, as feminism criticism of art has been around for decades. It’s more present in popular culture these days for plenty of reasons, but it’s far from a new trend.

I’ll stop derailing the thread now. I need to go to bed and I’d hate to create more problems for the mods.

Ok it kinda bothers me how much it bothers people about the sexiness with Bayonetta The character herself likes to flaunt her figure. She knows how hot she is. Being sexy is a big part of her character

Do not compare this to Nier. It's nowhere near the same thing. 2B isn't presented as a sexual object outside of a dumb achievement which you can also get with a male character. Bayonetta is presented sexually constantly because it's apart of her character to be ridiculously sexy all the time.

@frostyryan: I dunno why it would bother you how anyone would interpret the game either way?

It's not a big deal. The franchise is established. We don't have to fight for it's survival.

2B is probably somewhat worse because per his own words she looks like because that's what Yoko Taro likes.

Which I guess the honesty is refreshing, not doing any "You will be ashamed of your words and deeds" shit.

Sounds like your on a social trend of your own there duder but you conveniently leave out that possibility though you throw out words no one said like "offended" or "against sexiness" but you're your own free thinking person that doesn't succumb to social norms right? All I'm saying is the outrage machine swings both ways in a big bad way.

Criticising something is not the same thing as being offended by it. Words have meanings you twisting them to fit your narrative of everyone who has anything negative to say as being a cog in an outrage machine, SJW, thought police is you purposefully being ignorant. Maybe your self-claimed old age has brought you to a point where you don't listen as well but there's nuance in these discussions maybe try navigating that first before you have your kneejerk reactions. Just a thought.

It's condescending to say people should experience the media they are criticizing first hand? Unless I'm mistaken, by her own admission when the topic came up, she said she had just "heard" that it was grossly pandering (presumably from Sarkeesian's Tropes series as the most visible criticism) and hadn't actually played it. Given that there are other feminists and female critics that disagree with Sarkeesian's take on the game, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that if Abby played it, she may come out with a different opinion of the game and the subject of whether it's offensively pandering or not than one highly visible critic.

The game is horny for Bayonetta and I love it.

Wait, what just happened.

Well when you're talking about sociopolitical elements of a game, as opposed to mechanical or aesthetic ones, they seem to be one in the same to me. You only criticize sociopolitical elements if on some level you find it disagreeable on an ideological level, yes? Words do indeed have meanings (what a platitude!) and if you want to distinguish the definition of "being offended" from "finding it disagreeable" you're welcome to enlighten me, but as far I can tell, the best you'll get out of that is an informal connotation of severity.

I replayed the first game a while ago and I have to agree that the game just seems too "distracted" from its core gameplay, with how often it injects cutscenes or vehicle intermissions or QTE's that effect your level grade. I never had an issue with the "sexiness" of the game, but I did find the overall style to be really dull despite all the wacky goings-on. I guess a major contributor to that would be that I think all the characters just kinda suck (aside from fake Danny Devito).

I do want to get around to the second game someday. It sounds like I'd be able to enjoy the core gameplay relatively unhindered in that one.

@slasktotten: I'm tempted to recommend you Metal Gear Rising Revengeance. It has gameplay very much like Bayonetta's, but no vehicle sections, no burlesque protagonist, a completely optional turret section, QTE's that are accompanied by a merciful slow-down of time etc. It's interesting how all that stuff came to be in Bayonetta. I've watched the developers' commentary, and QTEs were implemented because at the time, they were viewed as a way to make cutscenes more exciting and interactable for the player. I don't think they could've been implemented any worse, though. They're REALLY quick.

The extended bike and rocket sections were references to two old sega games the director loves, After Burner and Fantasy Zone no wait, Space Harrier, complete with remixes of music from those games. They're meant to break up the gameplay to give you a break from the kicking and punching, but I think the reason they go on for so much longer than necessary is because the director was so into them. Platinum loves doing stuff that references their partner on these projects, it's why they made such a ton of Nintendo Costumes and stuff for the Wii U release and Bayo 2. I got really tired of playing both of those sections though, especially during the barrel roll section you mentioned, since the entire screen rotates.

Metal Gear Rising Revengeance is not as big-budgeted as Bayonetta, so it doesn't have the same depth or breadth of content. But it might be worth checking out if you can, to see if you like that game better, or if Bayo 2 is more your speed despite the stuff that annoyed you about the first one. I haven't played Bayo 2, though. For all I know everything that annoyed you besides Bayo sliding crotch-first into the camera has been changed.

The combat camera might always be an issue from time to time though. It's a bother to deal with large enemies without just zooming the action inredibly far out, and at that point it doesn't look as cool.

I replayed this when it came out on PC and I kinda wish I didn't. It had all kinds of game breaking problems they didn't address for nearly a month but besides that, I was reminded of some things I didn't like. The QTE is not great like you said, especially the ones during the cinematics. They come to quick and ruin those moments and pacing of the game. The other major thing is how often it reuses bosses. It totally felt like padding and it really rubbed me the wrong way my 2nd time.

I think the sexy stuff works in this game. The game is over the top and so is Bayonetta. It's not purvy just for the sake of it, they ring a lot of comedy out of it. The way she humiliates the enemies in the game is well choreographed and at times, hilarious. The story sucks but there was something sweet about the kid Bayonetta/adult Bayonetta interacting throughout the game. If there is a problem with representation then it's the whole cast. Literally every character is a caricature. I don't think one can just point the finger at Bayonetta alone. But really, it's just silly fun and it's not trying to be some subversive thing and it's not meant to be taken seriously.

I totally get that a lot of people appreciate bayonetta because it's sex positive, but I got exactly the same read as you from it.

The game's incredibly horny for bayonetta and the way she's framed by the narrative is as her own character rather than a avatar for the player because she knows a bunch of characters and information that we don't. I didn't feel like I was bayonetta, I felt like I was watching her do cool shit and get naked.

It just kinda made me feel real gross. It's not sexy, it's sexual. There are plenty of big games like The Witcher series, the new Wolfenstein games and the Dragon Age games that are super horny and I was down with that. It's okay for games to be horny.

I've heard the argument that Bayonetta's sexuality is an expression of herself, that it's just for her and I think that it's a totally valid read. She absolutely is a self-possessed, powerful woman whose sexuality is a huge part of how she expresses herself. I just think that arriving at that take depends heavily on the person playing it. For me, I spent two games feeling like I was being forced to listen to someone talk about their fetish in the middle of a great action game.

Unskippable QTE's and the gimmicky vehicle sections, that I personally don't think are bad on their own but ruin some of the replayability of the game, are the only major flaws with it that bother me. Other than that it's pretty much my favorite action game of all time, competing only really with DMC4. The second game improves on just about everything, but it wasn't as impactful overall on the merits of being an incrementally improved sequel.

If anything bothers me about Bayonetta it's how the overall design crosses so close to Devil May Cry that it might as well be stepping on its toes. It feels a little like one of those projects that was made because Mikami couldn't make that game elsewhere. It has its own ideas but, I keep looking at it as a copy-paste replacement job. "Hey, let's swap out the demons for angels. Also, our protagonist is a witch. With a witch sister who acts like an antagonist at times. Also, our protagonist comes from a FORBIDDEN PARENTAGE OR SOMETHING!"

@shindig: Kamiya, right? Mikami didn't have anything to do with it.

It's definitely a "I made Devil May Cry a decade ago, let's see what happens if I do that again now" kind of deal though.

I knew I'd get those two mixed up.

@slasktotten I am a bit with you on this, played it on the 360 originally when there was all the buzz about it and thought it was very much "I love this bit" "I am really not loving this bit" by the end. Went back to replay it when the Wii U version came out (still on the 360) due to the next bout of buzz and found the annoying bits more annoying that time around so dropped off. From the sounds, the sequel is more polished but then if the 'dressing' of the game is also a bit much at time at least there are plenty of other games of this genre wrapped around other themes. I know it's not a very similar game but Enslaved was a game I remember playing around the same time as the original and made a more lasting impression. But then I'm not really a combo chaser, I just like the odd bit of third person combat. Oh, and high five on opening the gates of hell - well done!

I found the sex factor to be campy and funny. It was presented with tongue firmly planted in cheek. While it’s not high art, it’s not sleezy.

Also, it’s a vidjagame. No damsels were distressed during the making of this game.

@redhotchilimist: Man I should totally have clocked those references (although I've never played Afterburner), thanks! A big reason for why I was able to catch up with Bayonetta though was that it's on the Switch, so if Bayonetta does well hopefully they'll look into bringing over stuff like Rising and Vanquish as well!

@casepb: They have a bunch of different offers. For example (I live in the UK, and this is from the eshop) buying either Bayonetta 1 or 2 gives you a discount on the other, which means that even if you buy them separately it's only like £3 more expensive than getting a pack.

@pompouspizza: Luka sucks.

@sweetz: I was probably a bit too condescending in my op, for which I apologies. For me it's about how you depict sexiness, if anything I wish games depicted sexuality more.

I just think it's really easy to point at videogames, because they're often really bloody bad at it and guilty of turning into adolescent fantasies. My problem with Bayonetta is that she feels like some sort of s&m fetish fantasy dreamt up by a producer/director, rather than an actual character expressing their sexuality. I feel the game is regularly stopping to show me Bayonetta's physical features. "STARE AT HER BREASTS" "OHHH YEAH HER BUM" "MMM, LOOK AT THAT CROTCH", and it's also at the expense of pacing and flow.

Now maybe this is an unfair comparison.. But looking back at movies like "The Secretary" or "Duke of Burgundy", I feel we can point to examples where we have sex positive works (complete with s&m themes), but where the sexuality is an expression of a character rather than than the entirety of the character.

I'd also say"Shape of Water" is a film with a female character who feels very much empowered and in charge of her own sexuality.

Reading the wiki definition for pornography sums up my feelings quite well "...is the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the exclusive purpose of sexual arousal." I feel like that's what the game is about, not empowering or expressing anything meaningful about the character "Bayonetta".

Apologies for wall of text and the word pooping!

Now I think I was actually more positive on the actual core combat of Bayonetta. I found the combo stuff (especially when I got my head around holding R for launchers) to be really satisfying. I'd still say though that the high watermark for the genre is Ninja Gaiden for xbox (also a game with it's own issues but heyho).

@stantongrouse: Haha! I beat the game at like 2am yesterday and just had to get a bunch of thoughts out. I should probably have slept on it...

@slasktotten yeah, age and many feelings of "what the hell have I unleashed" have made me enforce a self imposed ban on floating my thoughts out into the void any time that has AM in it but hasn't had a period of sleep before. Best intentions can so often end up blowing up in our faces.

I think the sex-positive read of Bayonetta is valid and interesting but perhaps a bit of painting the bull's eye on after the fact.

But I do not think at any point the purpose of the game or character is to arouse. There are certainly plenty of games that intend or expect you to leer along with the camera but the chief concern of Bayonetta always seems to be to make you laugh with it instead.

@slasktotten: Luka does suck but I enjoy watching him try to look really cool but because he’s a massive dweeb, he inevitably fails.

Loki on the other hand, has nothing redeemable about him whatsoever and his “British” accent makes my ears bleed.

I think of Bayonetta's "sex arousal" the same way I think of Dante's "coolness", that is, they (the characters and the director) try so hard to sell you on it, that it goes all the way back and becomes cringe-worthy. It becomes a little too much, at least when it is not played for laughs...

But, at least, I have to give credit to Bayonetta because "sexiness" is one of the core characteristics of the character, unlike countless other female characters that jump into battle with a bikini solely for the benefit of the teenage audience, or have contrived explanations as to make the audience be ashamed of their words and deeds, while leering on the cosplays. It might be overwhelming at times, but it was a thought out, sincere, intentional decision on the part of the staff, who proved they can take it for laughs; instead of something that looks like marketing wanted to stamp some 3D boobs on the front box...

There's an argument to be made that Bayonetta's ownership of her sex appeal is part of making her an empowered character, but the game's ridiculous male gaze actively take away from that. It's valid to appreciate that aspect of her character, but at the same time not appreciate the camera always being up her ass.

But anyway, the second game is more polished. More pleasant to look at and no (or at least fewer) BS QTEs. It's definitely worth playing.

How the hell are people still having the same stupid "is Bayonetta's hornyness gross or cool" discussion a decade later? Yeah, the game is overtly sexualized and it ogles its main character at every occasion. You could teach an entire course on how the game uses the male gaze. If that's your jam, you'll love it and there's nothing anyone can do to convince you that having a witch-stripper breakdance fight angels is gross and vice-versa.

Circular arguments where people refuse to agree to disagree due to the subjective nature of it.

If there's one thing that I've learned about these forums is people like to argue for the sake of arguing, not for the sake of understanding, common ground or resolution.

Welcome to video game discussion boards. Next up, why Call of Duty is so lame/cool and why Battlefield is worse/better.

I'm definitely on the pro-Bayonetta side in terms of her character and her look, despite the fact that I don't really care for the games.

They are always extremely up-front about Bayonetta's characterisation and use it as an effective tool to make their game stand out. It's far from a super-serious game where such a sexualised female character is going to stick out - everything is hyper-stylised and turned up to 11, and she is the perfect proof of that. She's also absurdly powerful, and in her world that power is being used to the best effect for herself and for her world; she ain't running for political office, she's kicking down doors and stomping demons in the throat. And many of the figures she's killing are presented as masculine, so if patriarchy exists in Bayonetta's world, then obviously nobody's told her about it.

And because they're so up-front about her character, they let the audience decide how they feel about it, which leads to threads and discussions like this one. It's totally okay to be put off by how hyper sexualised the game is, and the fact that there probably are lots of people who are actively turned on by Bayonetta isn't necessarily a bad thing, either, or something that we should be snooty about.

I'd be sad if a character like Bayonetta couldn't exist in 2018. As always, it's all about context, and Bayonetta is, by and large, the exception to the rule.

Exactly this. Bayonetta's sex appeal and sexuality is woven into every aspect of the game. She is portrayed as a dominatrix who is loving every second of it, and it comes across in her one-liners, torture attack animations, the way she interacts with other characters during cutscenes, and her general attitude. She isn't just there to be ogled, and she makes the "choice" to behave that way. I would argue that what separates Bayonetta from other scantily-clad female characters in games is that she seems to be in control of her sexuality where those other characters are not.