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    Arcanum is the continent on which the events of the game Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura take place.

    Arcanum: Days 4+5

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    ahoodedfigure

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    Edited By ahoodedfigure

    Fear and Loathing in Tarant


    I've entered into a rhythm that has given me quite a bit of coin to spare: I check all the sellers for saltpeter to help me make gunpowder, and glasses and pocketwatch parts to make the lucrative mechanical goggles (which rope more than a thousand a piece on resale), and I check trash bins for flintlock pistol parts (combined with the rare small metal tube it gives me a huge return on my investment in time) and rags for cheap bombs (I boosted my skills to be able to make a lot of fuel, so I don't even have to buy that anymore).   If missions paid in components instead of parts I'd already be in the tens of thousands :)
     
    Last night I ran into some seriously difficult critters, and on replay lucked out on how to stop them all.  Only after I checked someone's hut again did I realize that I'd missed the object that would have clued me in on what to do.  Felt a bit of pride in that, but this was after I gave up
     
    Arcanum, for all its innovation, is decidedly old-school.  Very brutal combat, decisions that may wreck hours of work, lots of eccentricities.  But viewed through that lens I find it hard to condemn it too much.  I DON'T consider Troika games' short-lived production line to be part of the old-school era per se, but it wound up throwing a lot of 
     
    I'm beginning to wonder if I didn't just run into the wrong enemies before. There seems to be an INCREMENTAL decrease in my ability to use firearms if I boost magic, but not so dramatic as I initially thought. I still think the engine could have approached the magic/tech problem better, but I'm pretty sure my initial impression was based on my first encounter with a tech-resistant creature.
     
    Tech resistant creatures, however, is an issue I continue to have.  I vaguely remember Arbitrary Water talking about this, but I don't want to go back and read his thoughts until I've completed the game or given up.  There are a LOT of creatures with technology resistance, which basically decreases your chance to hit with a weapon (and I think it increases your chance to critically fail, which can cause all kinds of "fun" problems). Simple undead tend not to be a problem, but the stronger ones tend also have such a high technology resistance that I wind up spamming them with fire bombs, hoping my two buddies can chop it to bits before it tears me apart.  Since so many have tech-resistance, it makes me feel like the entire technology side of the character spectrum is a bit more isolated than it should be, bringing me back to my fundamental criticism of the dichotomy, I guess.  It really doesn't have to be this way.  It could still have a strong thematic presence but have other manifestations...
     

    How Another RPG System Deals with the Issue of Varying Abilities


    Here's an analogy for the RPG-savvy out there.  Wizards are basically artillery in old Dungeons and Dragons, and the way their effectiveness is balanced is to give them the crappiest amount of hit points, and an inability to use most armor and weapons. This has been mitigated somewhat in later editions, but they still make it harder for a wizard to tank up than other classes to keep it from being too powerful. One way they changed this a bit in Icewind Dale 2, still one of my favorite late-era computer RPGs for its beautiful engine and flexibility, was to allow wizards to learn how to use armor if they wanted, but when wearing armor they risked miscasting their spells (pretty devastating when you memorize spells; if you cast it and it fails, it's gone for the day. It's not like spell point reservoir systems that let you pick the same spell again). This miscasting percentage could be dropped incrementally through feats (read: bonus abilities), but all the feats you spent on THAT could have been spent making you a more effective spellcaster. 
     
    Add to that the much easier dual/multi class system from third-edition. In earlier editions of D&D you tended to need ability scores that were pretty high in order to start leveling in a new class.  You could level as a wizard for a while, then start taking levels in another class.  For humans this was super easy, and other races were given classes they preferred to multiclass in, with experience point penalties for stepping outside that grouping too far (I've never liked how races are handled in D&D, but that's me).  A Wizard who wanted to automatically get the armor-use and the higher hit points of another class could get it fairly easily this way, though when casting spells the above miscasting percentages were still possible.
     
    I say all this because Dungeons and Dragons, despite it being a fairly rigid system with its classes, levels, and you-have-it-or-you-don't skills and abilities, still managed in later incarnations to be more and more flexible, but it still kept its own engine's preference for certain paths at the forefront.
     
    When compared to the Arcanum system, it seems initially that Arcanum's flexibility easily squishes D&D flat, and in many ways it TOTALLY does when you look at the types of spells and specializations you can begin with.  But it also has a fairly rigid class system hiding behind this multi-faceted engine, making a lot of choices a recipe for mediocrity or even failure.  At least with Dungeons and Dragons the rails were right there, and you could try your best to have a pretty worthless character, but you had to try pretty hard.  Arcanum makes failure easy, by comparison, because it has rails, but only shows you where they were when you've jumped the tracks.
     
    I think the moderation that Icewind Dale 2 used to balance classes could be incorporated into a similar Arcanum-style world and make those who want some tech/magic compatibility problems to still make sense, but also to give players making characters a chance to prepare for and react to those issues without being completely ineffectual during some battles because a target's resistance is too high.
     
    I don't dare refer to Dungeons and Dragons all the time as a paragon of design; that monster's been all kinds of flawed from the beginning.  But it manages to include everyone around the table: the warrior distracts the big monster, the wizard gears up her artillery, the cleric defends and strengthens the group, the thief sticks a knife in the baddy's back. Sometimes some characters WOULD be weaker against a threat, definitely (spell resistances, weapon-type resistances, that sort of thing).  But it seems that Arcanum more makes that the rule, with a sliding scale of effectiveness based on what character you've been building, not what weapon or spell you happen to be using.  When you have a main character who is all but excluded from combat (yet still the primary focus of the AI's attacks), despite this character basically being the best at combat, it leads to some frustrating situations that basically tell you you gathered the wrong party, or even built the wrong character.  
     
    I've managed to compensate pretty well for this system's problems.  Other than switching it to Easy I've come to be intimate friends with molotov cocktails, using them to scatter badguys and give me a chance to heal and fire wildly at the weakest of the bunch. The pistol is still damned effective when it manages to hit, at least most of the time, and I have two sidekicks, Virgil and Magnus, who run interference when they can.  I also defiantly keep using a spell that is actually really effective: Disarm.  It sadly doesn't rip their arms out of their sockets (maybe that would be called De-arm), but if they have a troublesome weapon I can knock it to the ground with satisfying frequency. I'm not sure how much longer this will be effective if I continue to boost my character's firearms skill, though.
     
    All of this is to say, basically, that I find myself afraid to skill my character up because I don't know what the consequences will be down the road.  I'm not sure if I'll reach a point where my character will be even worse off in those magic-resistance scenarios and have to depend completely on her companions for support. I'm set to boost Firearms to the next grade but I'm not sure I should.
     
    I'm betting some of this uncertainty would be weaker if I knew how the engine actually reacted to these changes.  If it was a completely open system, telling me the consequences, short term and long term, for every character point I spend, I'd be more willing to make certain sacrifices to get the character I wanted.  At least with Dungeons and Dragons shows you immediately what the effect is.  Despite Arcanum's system being super open on the surface, it's got a lot of machine-bits underneath that aren't quite apparent.  I'd rather not read up on technical spoilers, but I can see why some people might want to. 
     

    Anyway


    All that said, I'm still enjoying myself. I've even reached a point now where I think the story of the clashes between the fantasy races is clearer to me, and I don't feel as strongly about my initial impressions of them feeling superfluous.  Some of them still DO feel superfluous, but you get a good feel for elves, orcs and dwarves.  The story in general is interesting, and there's a lot of sentiment in the game, despite it having this very cynical and morally gray quest system where nothing is completely tidy.  I like it, I've always wanted to see a game that can get your hands this dirty, yet I find that I'm often reluctant to make any choice in the game for fear of it exploding in my face. If I didn't give a damn if the city guards attacked me I'd just choose what I want and enjoy the surprises, but I prefer to be able to craft and explore in peace.  Thankfully there have been instances where I was able to salvage the situation, or I just loaded an earlier save and tried something else (I get the feeling the designers actively anticipated the player's ability to do this, moreso than most RPGs I've played, which is sure interesting).
    My character's at level 30 (having read that the cap is 50 (I think) has made me slow down and consider what I'm doing with my skill increases now), and has some basic chemistry and herbology to complement her explosives and gunsmithy expertise. I'm keeping her spell spheres at low level, although I'm still going to tinker with expanding this to more low-level abilities to see if I can increase her versatility. If not, I'll just take lockpicking and go completely over to the Tech-side of the force. Virgil has no such machine abilities, obviously, but his healing spells still work on my main (more than half the time, at least), and I look forward to when he'll be able to resurrect (if that's something that the NPC can figure out. Guess I'll see). Magnus has constructed a very light axe which makes him a very effective melee fighter, and his construction abilities in general have made this little venture turn a tidy profit. 
     
    There have been a few quests that ended weirdly. I hope this was on purpose, since I like the ambiguity but I also wonder if I just did them wrong or still have to figure out some secret that wasn't apparent.  I've moved the main quest forward a notch, burned a few bridges, built a few more. Such is life in the world of Arcanum.
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    ahoodedfigure

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    #1  Edited By ahoodedfigure

    Fear and Loathing in Tarant


    I've entered into a rhythm that has given me quite a bit of coin to spare: I check all the sellers for saltpeter to help me make gunpowder, and glasses and pocketwatch parts to make the lucrative mechanical goggles (which rope more than a thousand a piece on resale), and I check trash bins for flintlock pistol parts (combined with the rare small metal tube it gives me a huge return on my investment in time) and rags for cheap bombs (I boosted my skills to be able to make a lot of fuel, so I don't even have to buy that anymore).   If missions paid in components instead of parts I'd already be in the tens of thousands :)
     
    Last night I ran into some seriously difficult critters, and on replay lucked out on how to stop them all.  Only after I checked someone's hut again did I realize that I'd missed the object that would have clued me in on what to do.  Felt a bit of pride in that, but this was after I gave up
     
    Arcanum, for all its innovation, is decidedly old-school.  Very brutal combat, decisions that may wreck hours of work, lots of eccentricities.  But viewed through that lens I find it hard to condemn it too much.  I DON'T consider Troika games' short-lived production line to be part of the old-school era per se, but it wound up throwing a lot of 
     
    I'm beginning to wonder if I didn't just run into the wrong enemies before. There seems to be an INCREMENTAL decrease in my ability to use firearms if I boost magic, but not so dramatic as I initially thought. I still think the engine could have approached the magic/tech problem better, but I'm pretty sure my initial impression was based on my first encounter with a tech-resistant creature.
     
    Tech resistant creatures, however, is an issue I continue to have.  I vaguely remember Arbitrary Water talking about this, but I don't want to go back and read his thoughts until I've completed the game or given up.  There are a LOT of creatures with technology resistance, which basically decreases your chance to hit with a weapon (and I think it increases your chance to critically fail, which can cause all kinds of "fun" problems). Simple undead tend not to be a problem, but the stronger ones tend also have such a high technology resistance that I wind up spamming them with fire bombs, hoping my two buddies can chop it to bits before it tears me apart.  Since so many have tech-resistance, it makes me feel like the entire technology side of the character spectrum is a bit more isolated than it should be, bringing me back to my fundamental criticism of the dichotomy, I guess.  It really doesn't have to be this way.  It could still have a strong thematic presence but have other manifestations...
     

    How Another RPG System Deals with the Issue of Varying Abilities


    Here's an analogy for the RPG-savvy out there.  Wizards are basically artillery in old Dungeons and Dragons, and the way their effectiveness is balanced is to give them the crappiest amount of hit points, and an inability to use most armor and weapons. This has been mitigated somewhat in later editions, but they still make it harder for a wizard to tank up than other classes to keep it from being too powerful. One way they changed this a bit in Icewind Dale 2, still one of my favorite late-era computer RPGs for its beautiful engine and flexibility, was to allow wizards to learn how to use armor if they wanted, but when wearing armor they risked miscasting their spells (pretty devastating when you memorize spells; if you cast it and it fails, it's gone for the day. It's not like spell point reservoir systems that let you pick the same spell again). This miscasting percentage could be dropped incrementally through feats (read: bonus abilities), but all the feats you spent on THAT could have been spent making you a more effective spellcaster. 
     
    Add to that the much easier dual/multi class system from third-edition. In earlier editions of D&D you tended to need ability scores that were pretty high in order to start leveling in a new class.  You could level as a wizard for a while, then start taking levels in another class.  For humans this was super easy, and other races were given classes they preferred to multiclass in, with experience point penalties for stepping outside that grouping too far (I've never liked how races are handled in D&D, but that's me).  A Wizard who wanted to automatically get the armor-use and the higher hit points of another class could get it fairly easily this way, though when casting spells the above miscasting percentages were still possible.
     
    I say all this because Dungeons and Dragons, despite it being a fairly rigid system with its classes, levels, and you-have-it-or-you-don't skills and abilities, still managed in later incarnations to be more and more flexible, but it still kept its own engine's preference for certain paths at the forefront.
     
    When compared to the Arcanum system, it seems initially that Arcanum's flexibility easily squishes D&D flat, and in many ways it TOTALLY does when you look at the types of spells and specializations you can begin with.  But it also has a fairly rigid class system hiding behind this multi-faceted engine, making a lot of choices a recipe for mediocrity or even failure.  At least with Dungeons and Dragons the rails were right there, and you could try your best to have a pretty worthless character, but you had to try pretty hard.  Arcanum makes failure easy, by comparison, because it has rails, but only shows you where they were when you've jumped the tracks.
     
    I think the moderation that Icewind Dale 2 used to balance classes could be incorporated into a similar Arcanum-style world and make those who want some tech/magic compatibility problems to still make sense, but also to give players making characters a chance to prepare for and react to those issues without being completely ineffectual during some battles because a target's resistance is too high.
     
    I don't dare refer to Dungeons and Dragons all the time as a paragon of design; that monster's been all kinds of flawed from the beginning.  But it manages to include everyone around the table: the warrior distracts the big monster, the wizard gears up her artillery, the cleric defends and strengthens the group, the thief sticks a knife in the baddy's back. Sometimes some characters WOULD be weaker against a threat, definitely (spell resistances, weapon-type resistances, that sort of thing).  But it seems that Arcanum more makes that the rule, with a sliding scale of effectiveness based on what character you've been building, not what weapon or spell you happen to be using.  When you have a main character who is all but excluded from combat (yet still the primary focus of the AI's attacks), despite this character basically being the best at combat, it leads to some frustrating situations that basically tell you you gathered the wrong party, or even built the wrong character.  
     
    I've managed to compensate pretty well for this system's problems.  Other than switching it to Easy I've come to be intimate friends with molotov cocktails, using them to scatter badguys and give me a chance to heal and fire wildly at the weakest of the bunch. The pistol is still damned effective when it manages to hit, at least most of the time, and I have two sidekicks, Virgil and Magnus, who run interference when they can.  I also defiantly keep using a spell that is actually really effective: Disarm.  It sadly doesn't rip their arms out of their sockets (maybe that would be called De-arm), but if they have a troublesome weapon I can knock it to the ground with satisfying frequency. I'm not sure how much longer this will be effective if I continue to boost my character's firearms skill, though.
     
    All of this is to say, basically, that I find myself afraid to skill my character up because I don't know what the consequences will be down the road.  I'm not sure if I'll reach a point where my character will be even worse off in those magic-resistance scenarios and have to depend completely on her companions for support. I'm set to boost Firearms to the next grade but I'm not sure I should.
     
    I'm betting some of this uncertainty would be weaker if I knew how the engine actually reacted to these changes.  If it was a completely open system, telling me the consequences, short term and long term, for every character point I spend, I'd be more willing to make certain sacrifices to get the character I wanted.  At least with Dungeons and Dragons shows you immediately what the effect is.  Despite Arcanum's system being super open on the surface, it's got a lot of machine-bits underneath that aren't quite apparent.  I'd rather not read up on technical spoilers, but I can see why some people might want to. 
     

    Anyway


    All that said, I'm still enjoying myself. I've even reached a point now where I think the story of the clashes between the fantasy races is clearer to me, and I don't feel as strongly about my initial impressions of them feeling superfluous.  Some of them still DO feel superfluous, but you get a good feel for elves, orcs and dwarves.  The story in general is interesting, and there's a lot of sentiment in the game, despite it having this very cynical and morally gray quest system where nothing is completely tidy.  I like it, I've always wanted to see a game that can get your hands this dirty, yet I find that I'm often reluctant to make any choice in the game for fear of it exploding in my face. If I didn't give a damn if the city guards attacked me I'd just choose what I want and enjoy the surprises, but I prefer to be able to craft and explore in peace.  Thankfully there have been instances where I was able to salvage the situation, or I just loaded an earlier save and tried something else (I get the feeling the designers actively anticipated the player's ability to do this, moreso than most RPGs I've played, which is sure interesting).
    My character's at level 30 (having read that the cap is 50 (I think) has made me slow down and consider what I'm doing with my skill increases now), and has some basic chemistry and herbology to complement her explosives and gunsmithy expertise. I'm keeping her spell spheres at low level, although I'm still going to tinker with expanding this to more low-level abilities to see if I can increase her versatility. If not, I'll just take lockpicking and go completely over to the Tech-side of the force. Virgil has no such machine abilities, obviously, but his healing spells still work on my main (more than half the time, at least), and I look forward to when he'll be able to resurrect (if that's something that the NPC can figure out. Guess I'll see). Magnus has constructed a very light axe which makes him a very effective melee fighter, and his construction abilities in general have made this little venture turn a tidy profit. 
     
    There have been a few quests that ended weirdly. I hope this was on purpose, since I like the ambiguity but I also wonder if I just did them wrong or still have to figure out some secret that wasn't apparent.  I've moved the main quest forward a notch, burned a few bridges, built a few more. Such is life in the world of Arcanum.
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    ArbitraryWater

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    #2  Edited By ArbitraryWater

    I actually had to refer back to my previous blogs to remember what I had said on the game prior. A lot of its elements have kind of blurred over time, since I gave up like 5 months ago. Your quest problem is one that I most certainly had, and it caused me to be a little more paranoid in my saving, as a single wrong dialog option could shut down an entire quest or have it end awkwardly. I guess that was kind of a problem with Fallout as well, but it's significantly more pronounced here. Maybe it's me coming off Baldur's Gate, where there are at most, two extremely evident solutions to every quest.
     
    Personally, I am wondering: What do you think of the characters, and what do you think of the main story? I remember having issues with both, but I would be interested in your opinion.
     
    D&D, for all its faults and anachronisms, offers a fairly solid base for character creation and progression. Even 2nd Ed, for all the weird and generally stupid restrictions it presents, is pretty open with what you get. Of course, maybe it's just me, but I don't think there ever was a singular "perfect" 3rd Ed. game the same way 2nd ed had BG2. Although, I guess if you were to combine Neverwinter Nights 2, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Icewind Dale II, you could make a pretty kickass RPG. Speaking of that (and of Troika, for that matter) maybe I should give TOEE another go after I finish BG. It's not especially long...

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    ahoodedfigure

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    #3  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @ArbitraryWater said: 
     
     


    " I actually had to refer back to my previous blogs to remember what I had said on the game prior. A lot of its elements have kind of blurred over time, since I gave up like 5 months ago. Your quest problem is one that I most certainly had, and it caused me to be a little more paranoid in my saving, as a single wrong dialog option could shut down an entire quest or have it end awkwardly. I guess that was kind of a problem with Fallout as well, but it's significantly more pronounced here. Maybe it's me coming off Baldur's Gate, where there are at most, two extremely evident solutions to every quest. 

     I'm wondering why multiple solutions that take on multiple themes can't be the rule.  Yeah, it's harder to do, but I'm not talking about that.  There's the satisfying, obvious answer that gives a nominal benefit, and then there's the risk: risking stealing the coveted object and keeping it, then blaming the theft on someone else. Risking doing the unpopular thing that you know is better than the obvious solution. Risking the lives of your companions for a greater overall reward at the end.
     
    Each of these ideas has separate motivations:  popularity, morality, personal wealth, group wealth.  THESE should be behind things.  In a sense games like Baldur's Gate had the right idea, they just didn't go far enough.  You had the neutral, the good, and the evil option, but people would often rightly ask why these were hammered into every situation, and sometimes why a good outcome was considered good, and a bad one bad.  Instead, there should be a list of sliders, suggesting an overall outlook of the character.
     
    Even games like Mass Effect, which continue to try to refine Bioware's morality system, still gets things wrong, as far as the player is concerned. I've heard people who picked what they thought was a justified path complain that it was labeled as renegade, and vice versa. They are given a role, but then they still want to define their own role, having a better idea of their own take on morality than the game designers do.
     
    Arcanum, at times, is really fun in its messiness.  I'm learning to get used to the idea that sometimes I'm not going to know what was going on, that I have to treat it a bit more like real life and just try to control my immediate vicinity rather than think I can run everything.  It's just that sometimes Arcanum seems to go a bit too far with this, such that the rule of the universe seems to be one of discord and dissatisfaction.  Yet those are the quests that stand out in my mind, I'm reminded of some quests that were straightforward and satisfyingly noble.
     

     Personally, I am wondering: What do you think of the characters, and what do you think of the main story? I remember having issues with both, but I would be interested in your opinion. 

    I have to admit I haven't delved too far into the main storyline, where most of the characters with speech and fully laid out personalities lie.  I'll reflect more on that when I have a better idea.  Right now it's limited to assassins and main quest suggestions.  Since I just talked to the magnate guy I'm sort of moving forward there and will have more to say later.
     
    Spoilers for those of you who haven't played, but the memorable characters for me so far are Magnus, who seems to be less fully aware of his own past than dwarves stereotypically are, the industrial magnate guy whose name escapes me, who seems to have faced great tragedy and built upon it a career based on an implicit lie, yet he manages to benefit the world (sort of).  One of my favorites came from the incidental conversation with a half-orc, in Black Root I think it was, who appreciated my kind remarks and gave me a gift out of nowhere.  Was rather touching, actually.  
     
    Thing is, these all feel like relatively isolated incidents so far.  Party dynamics aren't really part of this game like they are in BG, and people in general seem less like an element of the setting they're in than wildcards.  Like, if you go into a bar you get one of many behaviors from the bargoers, but these behaviors are random.  Get attacked by a guy in the bar, load, and talk to him again and he ask you trivia questions.  That's actually kind of neat, because it prevents you from gaming the system too much, but it does feel more impersonal at the same time.  
     
    Your hirelings are also impersonal in that they are sort of extensions of yourself once they join up.  They don't feel like individuals very much, except when they bitch if you kill pigs.   


     D&D, for all its faults and anachronisms, offers a fairly solid base for character creation and progression. Even 2nd Ed, for all the weird and generally stupid restrictions it presents, is pretty open with what you get. Of course, maybe it's just me, but I don't think there ever was a singular "perfect" 3rd Ed. game the same way 2nd ed had BG2. Although, I guess if you were to combine Neverwinter Nights 2, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Icewind Dale II, you could make a pretty kickass RPG. Speaking of that (and of Troika, for that matter) maybe I should give TOEE another go after I finish BG. It's not especially long... "

    Well, as a pen and paper engine I think 3E is too complicated; at least with 2E I felt like I could wrap my mind around what was happening. I think the primary problem was its move to support a miniatures line, which complicated the battle rules.  At least with a computer it can calculate battle rules for you, so you can concentrate on other junk. Despite non-working feats and the sometimes boring progression of warrior-type classes, I think Icewind Dale 2 kicks all kinds of ass, but part of that is the way the game is set up, having nothing to do with the engine.  So I dunno.  I don't like the rigidity of D&D, I like that in Arcanum I can pursue anything, but I suppose there are still restrictions underneath the surface.  Those restrictions, if set up like a looser version of D&D, would already have the paths they expect you to play laid out for you, but won't let you stray into Broken Country (unless, I guess, you really want to).
     
    I keep hearing that a well-patched TOEE is a good game, so I look forward to your reflections if you get a chance to play it.
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    Tennmuerti

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    #4  Edited By Tennmuerti
    @ahoodedfigure said:

    I've entered into a rhythm that has given me quite a bit of coin to spare: I check all the sellers for saltpeter to help me make gunpowder, and glasses and pocketwatch parts to make the lucrative mechanical goggles (which rope more than a thousand a piece on resale), and I check trash bins for flintlock pistol parts (combined with the rare small metal tube it gives me a huge return on my investment in time) and rags for cheap bombs (I boosted my skills to be able to make a lot of fuel, so I don't even have to buy that anymore).   If missions paid in components instead of parts I'd already be in the tens of thousands :)

    Heh I remember doing the same thing >.>
     

    @ahoodedfigure

    said:

    Tech resistant creatures, however, is an issue I continue to have.  I vaguely remember Arbitrary Water talking about this, but I don't want to go back and read his thoughts until I've completed the game or given up.  There are a LOT of creatures with technology resistance, which basically decreases your chance to hit with a weapon (and I think it increases your chance to critically fail, which can cause all kinds of "fun" problems). Simple undead tend not to be a problem, but the stronger ones tend also have such a high technology resistance that I wind up spamming them with fire bombs, hoping my two buddies can chop it to bits before it tears me apart.  Since so many have tech-resistance, it makes me feel like the entire technology side of the character spectrum is a bit more isolated than it should be, bringing me back to my fundamental criticism of the dichotomy, I guess.  It really doesn't have to be this way.  It could still have a strong thematic presence but have other manifestations...

    This is once again due to the tech/magic meter, when you have a higher tech alignment it balances out those penalties, so a pure tech character will not have such big problems killing even tech resistant creatures. You really need to forget about balancing on the razors edge with Arcanum unless you are playing a mele character maybe with 0 alignment (but again you don;t get the benefits of best tech/magic weapons/armor then either). Magic and tech really do not get along at all, they are even more in contrast in Arcanum then the light/dark side of the force is in SW, it helps if you start thinking of it that way :)  I guess it is just a theme/design decision that is pretty much at the heart of the game. This is not D&D this is not a mage trying to cast in heavy armor but like Yoda trying to use the dark force powers.
     

    @ahoodedfigure

    said:

    My character's at level 30 (having read that the cap is 50 (I think) has made me slow down and consider what I'm doing with my skill increases now), and has some basic chemistry and herbology to complement her explosives and gunsmithy expertise. I'm keeping her spell spheres at low level, although I'm still going to tinker with expanding this to more low-level abilities to see if I can increase her versatility.

    A pure magic user or a pure tech user would be wiping the floor with enemies by level 30
    You pretty much chose to ignore the penalties and benefits of the system on purpose, even tho you knew about it since people like me warned you.
    No one to blame but yourself, tut tut :)
     
    PS: slightly minor maybe spoilers, but if you want to completely not know then don't read, you will probably like it more if you don't, but I want to be an ass and tempt you a bit -
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    ahoodedfigure

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    #5  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @Tennmuerti:  Maybe I don't understand the system very well.  If I pick tech abilities, even that have nothing to do with firearms, my ability to hit magic-aligned enemies INCREASES?  I was under the impression that they decreased somehow.  
     
    I guess what I tried was first giving myself a magic ability (dropped the to-hit incrementally), then I tried firearms (understandably increased to-hit).  But if I, say, picked a mechanical crafting ability, that would also increase my to-hit because my tech alignment in general is higher?
     
    If I were a mage on the other side of the spectrum, would I also be able to hit tech characters better?  It seems that the opposite is true, that mages have trouble connecting with heavily tech-aligned creatures, the reverse for techs attacking magically aligned creatures, and the more you align yourself the stronger this problem gets.
     
    The Force analogy makes sense, but not as far as hitting others, so it's not a perfect match.  Yoda may have trouble choking out little kids with the Force, but he's still able to lay the angst-ridden low with his goodguy powers.  If he wastes time learning the dark side power Force-Whine he won't have spent as much time practicing his mini-Jedi Backflips, but would it also make his Backflips worse? I would think his Backflips would stay at the same level until he put points into it again.  Unless this all gets retconned in the expanded Expanded Universe, of course.
     
    Yeah, that analogy is totally busted.
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    Tennmuerti

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    #6  Edited By Tennmuerti
    @ahoodedfigure: 
     
    Yes that is exactly it.
    Magic makes tech fail and Tech dampens magic.
    So if you are a guy walking around in Power Armour sporting a machine guns with a couple of Robots in tow then magic will have a harder time affecting you, at the same time healing spells will also fail on you, it will also mean that you as a person who is uses tech constantly will have an easier time having his bullets hit the mage so to speak.
     
    That's why for example an extremely powerful mage for example will likely make a steam train fail to start if he tries to take a ride on it.
    The more powerful the mage the easier it is for them to make their magic affect technology or to keep magic working despite strong tech presence.
     
    Yea ok forget the Force analogy, it doesn't go as far, was just making a point about mutual exclusivity :/
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    ahoodedfigure

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    #7  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @Tennmuerti said: 

     Yes that is exactly it. Magic makes tech fail and Tech dampens magic. So if you are a guy walking around in Power Armour sporting a machine guns with a couple of Robots in tow then magic will have a harder time affecting you, at the same time healing spells will also fail on you, it will also mean that you as a person who is uses tech constantly will have an easier time having his bullets hit the mage so to speak.   

    You might see why I think this is unclear if you re-read what you wrote, and maybe replace tech with magic.  The opponent who knows magic is less likely to hit me, but I'm more likely to hit them. If their magic was better, they would be more likely to hit me in my techno-armor?  Or would they be worse?  Does the tech stuff distrupt the magic?
     
    I would still like a simple model to understand this.  Here's my attempt, based solely on what you've said and not the evidence I've gathered in-game so far:
     
    When you start out at the beginning, balanced pretty much, you're basically bad all around.  As you level and commit to technology or magic, your ability to affect those on the other side of the gap weakens relative to the level of the target.  So if the target is a high-level magic-aligned creature, a low-level tech person will have a worse time than a similarly-leveled neutral, and a similarly leveled magic user will have a still-easier time.
     
    If you take the technology path and exceed the level of the magical target, your technology in a sense beats the target's magic.  An equivalent level magic-user may still have an advantage over you in terms of damaging that magical target, but because of your higher level you have an advantage that disrupts the target and ignores the disruption for yourself.
     
    This all introduces an element I haven't heard you mention, however, which is the level of the creatures involved. The level of tech or magic HAS to be competitive with the target, otherwise things get much worse.
     
    And if that's all true it flies in the face of my impression, just from reading the manual, which suggests that high-levels of magic have an even tougher time helping a high level tech ally, or harming a high level tech enemy, since the gap between the two disrupts everything.   Since I see Virgil's healing spells are working less and less often on me, I assume this to be the case, and I imagine spells targeting me offensively will have a similar degree of difficulty merely because of my increased technological alignment, NOT comparitive to level.  This means the more tech I get, the harder it becomes, in general, for mages to affect me, good and bad.  If THAT'S true, then I must assume the reverse is true, that it will be harder for my poltices to help a magic user, and harder for me to shoot them, too. 

     That's why for example an extremely powerful mage for example will likely make a steam train fail to start if he tries to take a ride on it. The more powerful the mage the easier it is for them to make their magic affect technology or to keep magic working despite strong tech presence.  Yea ok forget the Force analogy, it doesn't go as far, was just making a point about mutual exclusivity :/ "

    If I get what you're saying, then, it's about relative alignment levels. The more tech you have the more superior you are to magical targets, unless they happen to have more magic than you have tech.  Is that sort of what you're saying?
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    Tennmuerti

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    #8  Edited By Tennmuerti
    @ahoodedfigure: Yes relative levels.
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    MrKlorox

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    #9  Edited By MrKlorox

    If I'm not mistaken there is a "dip" in effectiveness of alignment regarding combat about halfway toward one extreme or the other (ie: 50% tech or 50% magic aren't as hit affective as 100% of either, or as neutral 0%). How far up the tech alignment are you?
     
    Also you just have two party members? Is this a preference or have you just not recruited any others?

    TOEE is this week's GOG release, coincidentally. If Arcanum's battles were laid out like TOEE's battles, then I think Arcanum would be much more respected by all. I hope they offer a package deal when they release the remaining three of the seven post-beta launch games. That's the only reason I haven't bought anything from them recently.

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    ahoodedfigure

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    #10  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @MrKlorox:  I have 2 because that's what my charisma allowed, but I upped it to 3 by boosting CHA recently.  Just haven't found someone worthwhile to fit the extra slot.  There's the herbalist gal that I know of, basically, and she's sort of redundant now, and not a very good fighter.  When I find someone to join I'll be sure to mention it.
     
    I forget how far up the tech ladder I am, since it's on the other machine. I've committed to more techish stuff now and have been increasing my to-hit, as Tennmuerti suggested, just by increasing ANY tech skill, which I think is goofy but whatever.  Unless golems are considered tech and not magical, then I'm sorta screwed.  
     
    You'll note that TOEE uses the 3.5 D&D rules, sort of like what I've been talking about (although I was concentrating on Icewind Dale 2).  I prefer it when they adapt an engine to fit with computer gaming, but I hear a lot of good things about TOEE, despite the bugs.

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