Is any one else upset over the clones in this game? i know this is something that smash seems to do everytime but come on. Why cant Dr.Mario and Dark Pit just be skins. With as rich as the Nintendo Universe is we could of got better characters. I felt like they were really reaching out with this game with Little Mac and Duck Hunt Dog Just to be let down by more clones.

@gweedyj: I remember Sakurai mentioning in an article somewhere the reason why they did this is due to the limitations of the 3ds hardware. Though they were specifically mentioning that for the reason Sheik / Zelda and Zero Suit Samus / Samus didn't do in-game transformation. I myself was kinda shocked that Jiggly was the last unlock for the game.

No in-game transformations for those characters is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

@theht: I feel like the original intention with the transforming characters (Zelda/Sheik, Pokemon Trainer) was that you use one form against low percentage opponents, then when you have one more enemies at higher percentage you switch to a different form or something? But in practice that's never how they're used. Casual players just switch at random for the fuck of it, and all the competitive players just pick one form of Zelda/Sheik (and no forms of Pokemon Trainer because of the fatigue that kinda forces you to change), especially since the transform time in Brawl was so much longer due to load times.

So yeah, it was a cool experiment on a stance change character, but especially once the character models/animations got complicated enough that the loading took like, a full second, it just wasn't worth the trouble.

Was pretty psyched for Lucina but she's just Marth, and Marth sucks. At least Robin is good.

Clones are easy to put in. If the issue is that they're in there instead of unique characters, that's almost certainly not the case. And there are plenty of new, unique characters.

If Dark Ryu exists then Dark Pit can exist too.

Nah, I don't think it's anything to be let down about. It's mistaken thinking to consider the clones to be in lieu of unique characters.

Simply put, they're not taking up character slots. They're filling space that would otherwise be empty. Consider 'em bonuses rather than stand-ins.

Isn't it fine that they're different characters? Don't they have a few different moves and properties? It's not like a clone is anywhere near as much work as a regular character, it's not a one to one deal. I'm pretty sure I read Saurai say somewhere that he could either have four clones in melee or put Dedede in there, and while I love Dedede, I was pretty happy to have Ganondorf and Pichu in there somewhere. A wholly unique character is obviously better than a clone, especially at this point when quantity is no longer an issue, but I don't mind them at all.

I would rather have the clone characters not be in the game or be a skin than have them taking up a character slot, even if no unique characters replaced them. They are a pointless addition, I started a CPU match with 2 Pits and 2 Dark Pits and it was impossible to tell who was who. The slightly different attacks could have just been custom moves.

A little bit off topic but not sure how you can say there's a last unlock, R.O.B. was my last unlock. But hypothetically the last unlock could be a handful of characters

And Dr. Mario is a different character than Mario, his pills bounce higher, his Down special and air down attack is different. Dr. Mario is actually more like mario from N64 than the other smash.

I'll agree dark pit should straight up be a skin of pit, that guy is such a minor variance from the regular pit.

@lanechanger: Yeah, Bowser Jr. was my last unlock.

I think, just in terms of managing the expectations of the consumer, being transparent about clone characters (e.g. by making them skins) makes the best impression.

How do you feel about clones with different stats, like Ganondorf being a slower, stronger Captain Falcon (assuming that's still the case in this new game)?

Eh, I think this game has so many unique characters to begin with that the clones don't really bother me too much.

I hate that the clone characters aren't grouped with that franchise's characters. Instead Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit are in their own "fuck off" corner. I wish these guys went back to Konami and picked up Snake or some Castlevania characters instead of wasting a slot with Dark Pit.

@veektarius: The clone characters like Lucina and Ganondorf don't have identical properties to the characters they're based on. Some characters do appear as named alternate skins, though, like how Alph can be subbed in for Olimar.

But they aren't clones though. At least they weren't in brawl.

My biggest issue is when the clones persist across sequels. There's no reason Captain Falcon and Ganon should have the same moveset anymore. I'd love for Lucina to have her own moves but if the only reason she's in the game is because she's a clone then fine I can accept that. If Lucina and Marth are back next time I fully expect them to have different moves. I hate when people call developers lazy but I honestly can't think of another reason there are still the same clones from Melee and Brawl. Seriously, Melee came out in 2001, they've had 13 years to come up with a different moveset for Ganon.

@topsteer: While Ganon still shares a lot of similarities with Captain Falcon, he's not nearly as much of a clone in SSB3DS/Brawl as he was in Melee.

@topsteer: The reason why Ganondorf will never have his own moves is, ironically, because people play Ganondorf. Like it or not (which I don't), they're kinda stuck with it as is, because there's that whole fighting game thing where characters have to persist as they always have been. Just like Ken to Ryu. They can't change his moves, but they instead change attributes to continue differentiate the two as much as possible.

At least Ganondorf is more different from C.Falcon than Ken is from Ryu??

@yummylee: I know they play completely differently but they still have the same moveset which is my main problem. I'm not that familiar with Ganon but surely he has some well known attacks that they could replace his current moves with. I feel that it cheapens the existence of the character, like we don't care enough about this character to give him an original moveset and so he has no personality.

@topsteer: No, I agree. A character as iconic as Ganondorf surely deserves his own unique moveset, I just wanted to add that he at least isn't as much of a clone anymore as he once was.

@superkenon: I actually hate this suggestion but maybe they could add a new character? Was Ganondorf in Windwaker? If so they could add toon Ganondorf and replace his moves or they could replace the current Ganonorf's moves and add a "retro" skin with his old moves. I agree that Nintendo is in a damned if you do situation but I still think the better decision is just to give Ganondorf original moves.

@topsteer: I agree. It would infuriate a fraction of players, but only a tine one, and I think it'd be worth it to make him a wholly unique character. Would probably excite a broader range of players anyway.

I'm kicking myself for forgetting who said this, but in another thread someone floated the suggestion that they put Blood Falcon (hell, could be Black Shadow too) in the game for the sake of inheriting Ganondorf's moveset, while freeing Ganondorf himself for fun new stuff.

Also, Wind Waker Ganondorf was the most bad-ass mofo ever. Strong, nimble, and TWO SWORDS.

I feel if you are going to have clones/ palette swaps it needs to be done the way MK did it. Sub Zero and Scorpion feel like to completely different characters even though they are just palette swapped sprites. Dr. Mario and Dark Pit are too much like Mario and Pit for them to be their own character. I would rather this game have less characters then be filled with garbage.

From Sakurai in a Famitsu interview.

''There are 3 fighters [Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario] that are alternate models (clones) in the game. Each was originally a color variation, but during development, they were given balanced characteristics. Since their functionality had differences, forms were separated from each other. However, it was vital that this didn’t increase the required man-hours. Some relative tuning was sufficient as it wasn’t necessary to create balancing from scratch.''

GoNintendo Linkage

Whoa whoa, Dr. Mario is a different character. His moves might be the same, his features are pretty much the same but I'll be damned if I have to pick Mario and tab 6 times to get him. Everyone complaining about the extra characters are super silly.

Sakurai thinks you're a child:

“Yet, I’m told [to do that] about Smash Bros. But, I guess since a lot of them are children, it cannot be helped.”

"Filled with garbage"? There are, what, 40-something unique characters and a few clones? Good lord.

If I had to guess what the rationale is behind these fighters, I would say that if the clones weren't there, those slots would probably be empty. It's most likely due to available space/bug testing/other logistics or something along those lines - you're not really creating a whole new fighter, just altering an extant one enough that it warrants more than a reskin.

I don't hate them. They can give a slightly different twist on a character I already enjoy. I've had fun playing as Dark Pit, for instance. I wish Kid Icarus wasn't as disproportionately represented in the game (in the roster and otherwise) but I've found that, kinda like Wolf was to Fox, Dark Pit is a more powerful albeit slower twist on a character I played a ton of in Brawl - which is a fun thing to have.

I too wish there were more original characters but I don't even know if that's a logistically feasible thing to demand of the development team (at least in keeping with the parity between the 3DS and Wii U, since the latter could probably handle a much larger roster... I guess).

EDIT:

^Basically what I was saying.

Yeah. The roster's count is 49 (or 51 if you count all Mii Fighter types separately). A meager 3 of that total are clones. At worst, you can stretch that number to 6 by including Falco, Ganondorf and Toon Link, but those characters differ too greatly to rightly be called clones. For the sake of argument though, sure, let's do it. We've still got 43+2 unique characters.

That's a goddamn lot.

So yeah, their presence is negligible. But that aside, I think most of them are actually good additions. Dr. Mario is awesome just for having his tornado down-B instead of that water gun regular Mario is saddled with. With his additional tweaks, he plays more like the Mario I want to play as, while keeping the other around for those accustomed to that style. It's actually a pretty nice option for fans. Lucina is just great to see in Smash at all, and her sword mechanic actually lends her to be played in a different manner than you would Marth. Dark Pit is the one I go "meh" at, but as a Pit player it's interesting just how much I can't play as Dark Pit. The timing and execution of all his attacks weirds me out. He's been changed from his original more than it looks like at first glance, and I can see someone cottoning to his style where they wouldn't with OG Pit.

I recognize that a lot of what makes these characters interesting only matters to people who are deep on the mechanics of Smash, or are just fans of those characters, but I think that in itself justifies their inclusion. Again, they're just bonuses. If one doesn't like 'em, they're easily ignored, and you can rest easy that they're not substitutes for would-be characters. They were made with leftover (or remaining) production time. And for the people who their inclusion means something to, it's great that they're there.

B-B-But muh ripley and lucas and over character 1% of playrs care abowt

I did like playing Lucas more than Ness...

I did too, actually. Sometimes the clones are better than their originals!!

Because none of the "clones" are actual clones. Functionally they are completely different characters with the added advantage of requiring significantly fewer development resources than a completely original character would. Even if you got rid of all of them, there's no guarantee you'd free up enough dev time to properly implement a single all-new character.

I mean, no, they are clones. I don't know what you think "clones" mean, but from a fighting game perspective they are 100% pure clones. Lucina is especially literally a re-skin, except her sword has flat damage instead of Marth's tipper. They share identical moves for most of their specials, they have the same standard attacks, air attacks and fighting/moving animations. Dr. Mario and Dark Pit have one unique move each - Dr. Mario clones Luigi's down-b and Dark Pit clones Zelda and Shiek's final smash.

That's not a bad thing though. Sakurai has recently used the metaphor that creating a character is the equivalent of creating a large meat dish for a meal, while creating a clone is the equivalent of creating a small dessert. They require significantly less work to make. Only Lucina was ever planned as a clone too - Dr. Mario and Dark Pit were last minute additions to the roster.

Basically, the people in this thread complaining that they took the slot of another character don't understand how game development works.

I agree that Lucina and Dark Pit should have just been costumes, but I'm glad Dr. Mario is separate because fuck FLUDD.

That being said them being costumes wouldn't suddenly free up "slots" for fully fleshed out characters. The only reason clones are in the game is that they're cheap to make, plus making them costumes they'd still have to do most of the work that went into the clone versions.

@deegee: Right, "clones" but not clones.

I just miss Snake and Wolf I guess...and I'd rather they'd taken the extra time to stamp out clones. Yes its only 3 or 6 in a roster of 45+ plus characters but the point is as time goes on we'd hoped to stamp out Clones or that they'd become unique enough that they could be considered (I.e. if they had reworked ganondorf to give him a dual swords moveset). Yet they include more clones still, some of which are Absurdly similar without substantially changing the past clones that is the problem for me. Especially when they had a roster of previous Characters that are unique to pull from like Snake and Ice climbers or mewtwo

Yeah, if you go deep enough into any fighting game the "clones" end up being fundamentally different characters.