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ahoodedfigure

I guess it's sunk cost. No need to torture myself over what are effectively phantasms.

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ahoodedfigure

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#1  Edited By ahoodedfigure

@ArbitraryWater:

I'm sort of saying this to everyone in general, even if you're probably the only one reading it, as someone who's played the game enough to know some of the little pitfalls and quirks, feel free to ask me about how to do just about anything in Darklands and I'll come up with a concise, non-spoilery answer to push you in the right direction. The cluebook actually isn't so bad at the start, although later on it pretty much spells it all out. The character creation stuff in the beginning is good if you're not into using the defaults (and if you're not I don't blame you, though you're adding a few layers of complexity).

(How do you feel about the Darkside of Xeen as compared to the other? I felt it was vastly more fun, but again that's because I did it first.)

The unnerved feeling you get, is it due to the general subject matter being a bit tasteless or their dealing directly with a specific historical incident? Darklands seems to take a tasteful tack on the state of belief in the 1400s but it sort of depends on your tolerance levels, I guess.

I tend to think of Arcanum when we get in these discussions. You say Lionheart, which is generally thought of to be Not Acceptable, but how would Inquisitor compare to Arcanum?

I guess for me what shined in IWD2 were the vignettes. Like escaping the alternate dimension after beating the dragon, or fighting to retain the bridge. Even if there weren't consequences beyond loss/win it still felt more final than your garden variety TPK, and the music worked well to accompany the desperation of those fights. The puzzles were a bit harsh in places. I had to cheat to figure out the forest one, which was a source of embarrassment for me until I found it was basically impossible the way I was trying to tackle it. That, and I had a monk.

In a game where leveling is the point, triple classing is a good way to make sure you stay runty forever. I guess it's good if you're trying to go through it on the fewest characters possible, but DnD never really rewarded anything but specialization, unless it comes to spells. It is good to have a few levels in fighter, but it wasn't really possible until 3rd E to do that legally.

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#2  Edited By ahoodedfigure

@ArtisanBreads: Thanks for taking the time to read it :) Don't forget the unforgiving part, there are times when I just shake my head at it, like with the inventory system not distinguishing between equipped and non-equipped items, or the save system, which allows a new save each time, but doesn't let you overwrite existing saves, so you have to go in and clean it out, since it doesn't seem to understand how to put saves in chronological order. I'd criticize it for not putting saves with different parties, but even Skyrim doesn't put saves to individual characters (like, say, Dragon Age did).

But I spent a good part of my weekend so far playing Darklands, and now that my party's past the initial difficulty hump I'm less afraid to dive in and hit "B" in combat, which means they don't bother to defend themselves and just whomp on things. Also, when you take out a Raubritter after being asked to, things really pick up. My folks are known throughout central Germany now, though are hated in Prague (I think) for blowing up an inn with a freak alchemical failure.

@Mento: I'm not familiar with Lords of Shadow, but I'd say Darklands was FAIRLY maligned when it was released, and it still has painful design choices (and lack of choices) in certain areas, but I do think they took routes that make for a satisfying alternative in key gameplay areas. I keep thinking this would be a great project for a full Infinity Engine conversion, but I imagine that'd be a lot of work.

And yeah, I guess Arena was popular for its time but not excessively so, and Daggerfall was popular enough despite its legendary level of bugs, just for their ambition alone. That ambition's taken a slide with the sequels, but there are hints here and there of the past in their new games. Not enough for my taste, but I already know I'm a bit eccentric :)

@OldGuy: If you do, let me know how it goes. I get a bit cantankerous at times with it, but if I stick with it I tend to feel a sense of ownership over my party after a while, which I think is a good sign. Saint list is getting a bit long, though...

@ArbitraryWater: Yeah, there's no autosaves. I was feeling that pinch a few times until I got into the habit, but it goes OK now, especially since my general survivability is a lot better. Sad to hear Inquisitor's not living up to expectations, but I can't say I really felt strongly about it from what I'd seen. I'm sorta glad a project that TRIES to hit those targets gets enough publicity to be noticed, though.

Things are a bit tough, perhaps too tough for someone who isn't prepared to reload. I had to get used to it until I caught enough lucky breaks through gameplay that my folks were strong enough. May be a bit of work, but it feels like you accomplished something afterward. No foolin'.

You haven't even written about a pre 95? Hmm. Well, I'm not going to lean on you, given how derelict I've been on my side of things, but would like to see what you have to say about this stuff, regardless. You may even... find something... you might... sorta like.

Also, sorry IWD2 wasn't super great for you, I'm still having trouble figuring out why I liked it so much. Maybe I was a bit lucky with some of the situations working out as they did, or... maybe we have different tastes. I dunno. (Yeah, many of the puzzles are a bit insane).

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#3  Edited By ahoodedfigure

@ArtisanBreads: I appreciate it :) I know it's long but I'm hoping to err on the side of informative, so I hope you get something out of it when you have the time to check it out. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's non-magical, but it's DIFFERENT enough that it doesn't feel like the usual infallible, error free hand waving we've come to expect in genre titles. Anyway, cheers :)

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#4  Edited By ahoodedfigure

@FourWude: It's good to know my efforts weren't wasted.

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#5  Edited By ahoodedfigure

I'm willing to bet most of you probably haven't heard of Darklands. Its messed up publishing history, where it was released with some rather nasty bugs, didn't help it achieve the legacy it deserves, and it doesn't help that it lacks some rather straightforward user-interface choices that would make it a lot easier to play. Yet, it is still one of my favorite computer role-playing games.

I think part of the reason I'll always like Darklands is its willingness to be different. So many games emulate success unthinkingly, never asking WHY we assume some RPG convention is needed. In the conversion from pen and paper rules to software, too many things are often kept, often limiting the systems, since a computer can do many more complicated things than a bunch of people can with dice and paper. Since there are things pen and paper games STILL can do better than software, not playing to the strengths of computing often leaves many of the games feeling a bit weak.

Still, there's something to be said for simple mechanics: while Darklands' innovations are manifold, with many ideas still feeling fresh today, it sometimes crushes itself under its own systems. Reading the cluebook that you often find accompanying digital packages of Darklands helps illustrate this, since when talking about character creation it will tell you straight out that many skill and attribute options are inferior to others, such that, despite all the options that seem to be in the game, you're almost better off accepting the default party, something that's counter-intuitive for me in games with character creation.

Creating Your Motley Crew

The game in practice is still fun for me, but is still an exercise in trial and error to get things right, and this starts from the very beginning (make sure to match up nickname and full name, and get the gender right. There's no going back unless you want to make the character all over again). When creating a world, you also are allowed the option of creating your own characters instead of using the defaults provided. Each character is given several base attributes that determine their ability to fight in battle, use weapons, dodge attacks, notice things in the environment, learn, and interact with other people. The game doesn't tell you this, but it's possible to completely expend your starting points and not have problems later on, but for YEARS I would hold off on adding attribute points to everything because I assumed unspent points would carry on to skills later. This doesn't seem to be the case, at least not substantially so, and often starting with high levels of attributes helps you get past starting-level difficulties very easily.

Something that also only becomes clear through repeated new games or reading the cluebook is that certain attribute combinations are not only vital for having a decent party, but are pretty much mandatory. You wouldn't know it, but the wizard-type characters are heavily dependent upon Charisma, since the way they often acquire new alchemical formulae. Charisma is also considered to be vital for your leader, defaulting to the character in the lead. The ability for your team to be able to defuse situations is often the difference between survival and reloading, especially if you start by venturing out of the town gates early in the game. Agility, strangely, as well as Perception, are considered by the cluebook not to be as useful as the other stats. I don't quite agree, but often it proves true when Endurance and Strength are what help you more than anything else in combat. If you come into this game looking at every attribute like you do ability scores in Dungeons and Dragons and its clones, you're in for a bit of a shock.

After attribute allocation you advance the character five years and begin their first career. These alter base attributes by a bit, and give you starting skill points, as well as skill points you can allocate to the skills. The skills are abbreviated, so you have to refer to the manual to know what they mean. It becomes second nature after a few minutes, or after a while playing, which is what, but again, not every skill is made equal. Often a thief-style build will help you in certain specific situations, but with four character slots you have to be careful not to have a dedicated thief and just hope that they'll make up for their lack of weapon skills with sly tricks. This isn't a class based game, technically, so you're basically building a "class" from scratch, often having to remember to add weapon skill points with each career advancement to prevent your character from being useless in combat.

You can choose several careers, and this is often required to get some of the rarer careers. The downside is that after a few advancements you start to run into age-based penalties to your attributes. If your character gets too old, they become effectively weaker, so having to balance this out is an interesting, and unlike many of the character building above, apparent challenge. It's common wisdom to spend a few more careers on your alchemist, so that they have sufficient enough skill in alchemy not to blow up the inns where you mix your potions. Critical failures there are some of the more devastating non-combat failures in the game, so it's smart to make them as capable as possible.

Once you finish mixing up your skills, your character will be allotted starting gear, and you can pick an image, colors for that image, and heraldry.

Another weird thing is the starting gear, since I created a rather diverse party that followed pretty standard archetypes: a charismatic leader fighter, a pious fighter with a smattering of saint lore, a dedicated priest with the highest virtue and healing skill, and an alchemist with a bit of tinkering. When I checked their inventories, NONE of them had any armor, though they had a pretty good selection of weapons (except for pious guy. He started with a bow with no arrows, and no melee weapon at all). I'll admit this roll was DEATHLY unusual, and it took a while for they were able to secure decent armor from the corpses of brigands. Usually it'll be armor and a club. I'm not sure what happened but it's down to careers I think.

H. R. E. Punk

Once you have a party together you start in a random city in Medieval Germany, during the Holy Roman Imperial period. The setting is one of the game's great strengths, as it permeates to how time is told, how currency is converted, and adds flavor to characters and organizations which could simply be generic mayors, traders and bankers. The beasts, too, draw from the lore of the period, so you'll find the classical wolves and giant spiders, but also strange wooly men of the wood, and enemies directly from Christian mythology, including demons, cultists, and pagan creatures. The game does not mince words when it comes to depicting the society as a reflection of how people saw it at the time, with hermits and cardinals cursing you if you don't pay them tithes, calling upon saints having instant and measurable effects, and pagans being inexorably connected directly to satanic forces.

These things, while they may be a bit shocking given our tendency now to make such religious questions generic and analogous, enhance the setting and make it even more strongly of the period. It doesn't take long before you're actively rooting out corruption, praying to saints for deliverance, and being pious to passers by, and interestingly the game doesn't seem to necessarily take your side in this. The mechanics reinforce these choices, but the modern player will pick up on some of the ambiguities regardless.

Alchemy is also a step more substantial than it was in history, with the philosopher's stone being a real thing that enhances your formulae. You work to gather jealously guarded recipes to make potions that anyone can use close up, or throw at the enemy if their throw skill is decent enough. These potions have a wide range of effects, and are pretty much the only "magic" that you can use once a battle has started, as praying to saints is never done in combat (presumably it would take too long, although you can prepare for battle or even prevent battle through the use of saints in contextual situations).

St. Michael and the Mechanics

I won't got too deeply into the specifics of the game mechanics, but I'll set aside a bit of time to praise the weapon system and a few other things. Weapons in the game are not like you would find in Baldur's Gate, often defined most by the damage they do and their magical abilities. In Darklands magic weapons are rare, but each weapon has its own traits that distinguish it. Some are easy for unskilled characters to use, some require more strength to wield effectively, some penetrate armor better and do better damage when they do, while others penetrate poorly but do better overall damage. All weapons, all items in the game really, are also defined by their quality level, which has a big effect on how useful they are. A long sword of 10 quality is, as far as I understand, not nearly as good as a very high quality club. It makes sense, and it makes weapon loadouts a lot more diverse and interesting, encouraging experimentation to start and specialization later. Armor is more abstracted than this, but there are no armor restrictions. Your alchemist can wear plate armor, as long as they're strong enough.

Saints are called by spending virtue, which everyone has. Anyone can learn about a given saint, and since some saints have low base-virtue requirements, you can have several characters call upon saints without taxing your main priest. Characters are further differentiated this way so, if you get used to creating characters in this game you can have some pretty interesting combinations and still have an effective party. But since the saints you learn about are randomly distributed you have more tactical decisions about who to learn about, and who learns about him or her.

Baldur's Gate may not resemble this game too much, but in combat you see what may have influenced Baldur's Gate's design. Combat is in a three-quarters perspective, and it unfolds in real-time with pauses. You tell characters where to go and who to attack, and when unpaused they do that, assuming their pathfinding tasks aren't too complicated. In addition, you can choose different attack commands, some of which put the character at risk for damage but increase the chances for critical hits. When throwing potions you choose where to fire them, and then unpause to watch them explode in the enemy's face. There are also situations where you explore castles or caves, and this is done in this perspective, allowing for some skill use to find traps and open containers.

Mainly, though, the adventuring is done through menus, and while some people may scoff at this, I think this is another highlight of the game, one that needs to be emulated more by games. Like in King of Dragon Pass, you are often given contextual decisions, each of which may lead to lasting consequences. You're also given these menus when navigating cities and towns, or trying to mount an assault on a robber baron's fortress. The city navigation is especially pleasing; you can allow your imagination to fill in the blanks as far as what the medieval town looks like, but it only takes you a few seconds to walk to the merchant district to buy supplies, then a few more seconds to go to the inn, put one to work, another to praying, another to heal up, and the fourth to brewing potions. Even within these menus there are chances to encounter interested parties who want to hire you, or bandits who will try to rob you, so it doesn't feel nearly as dry as it might sound. While we still see similar mechanics in games that use conversation trees, the power of contextual lists is so often painfully under-utilized, from what I assume is a conservative stylistic choice. While Darklands does have its flaws, these lists are always refreshing for me.

Reputable Adventures in Saving

The Save Often RPG maxim is in full force in Darklands. There are no autosaves, and the game has an unfortunate tendency not to put saves in the proper order, forcing you to read the in-game dates on the saves if you have more than a screen of saves in your list. I'll admit this sucks, and I've sometimes deleted my latest saves by not being careful enough. Still, saving is pretty much required because ONE rough encounter can mean the permanent death of one or more party members-- you COULD carry on after that and create a new character to replace them with one you create (perhaps with someone more capable), but I've never done it.

It's also easy to be poor for a while, so it's smart to live on the cheap, sleeping in groves in your starting city and picking fights with robbers in order to gear up and gain money. I tend never to do that, though; my wanderlust is too strong. This means more saves and more loading, but you're never restricted to a damned tutorial area. Once you figure the game out, that was your tutorial, and you never have to go down that road again, unless you haven't played the game in YEARS. The game still gates you, though, as your reputation will often determine whether or not you get lucrative and rewarding jobs. The higher-end stuff will have you searching for relics and taking on monsters, while lower-end stuff is more breaking into offices and finding ancient sites to loot. You never need take a quest or follow the main plot, though. Never. You can just wander the countryside righting wrongs, fighting wild beasts, burning down villages corrupted by evil, and discovering new cities, saints, formulae, and gaining reputation all the while: It's no first-person slasher, but Darklands out-Bethesdas Elder Scrolls in terms of the kind free-roaming stumbling into adventure that I enjoy.

The reputation you earn, in a sense, is like the party's level, and is your overall measure of success in the game. Since so many party-based RPGs now seem to level everyone simultaneously anyway, this game sort of predicts this. Individual characters advance randomly when their skills are tested, and this can happen at any time, but the substantial increases come through reputation. The world gets tougher as corruption spreads, but the benefits increase too as your reputation grows, both your own party's and your reputation in the regions you explore. When characters advance in skills, you'll get a little notice of this to the side of the screen after a given encounter, and you can also try to increase these skills through the use of tutors and study. To me it's much more interesting than level tiers, because every encounter can bring increases, though progress isn't predictable or steady.

Epitaph

The game has some bugs that pop in on occasion, but it's nothing like waiting for the other shoe to drop in Daggerfall. It's not pretty, but its visuals and art style for the splash screens are full of character, functional and sometimes beautiful. The music is drawn from the period (and later), and helps set the mood, while the sounds during battle have charming electronic clangs as sword meets skull. The gameplay is bumpy in places, lacking the safeguards we've come to expect in good game design, but there are plenty of surprises, satire, and daring design choices that make Darklands not only an adventure in mythological medieval Europe, but also an adventure in game design itself.

If you have any questions about the game, ask in the comments or in a PM, and I'll try to answer as succinctly as I can manage. The early part of the ride is a bit bumpy, and anyone who wants to try it can expect a few setbacks, so:

B E N E F I T _ F R O M _ M Y _ O D D L Y _ S P E C I F I C _ K N O W L E D G E,

if you dare.

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#6  Edited By ahoodedfigure

Installation: went OK. It did that thing where the progress bar just sits there at 100% and you're sitting there wondering if something went wrong, but this is just my lack of faith in machinery. Once it was done doing its undisclosed things, it was ready.

Manual: Memorized the keys while it was installing, skipped the flavor bits so I could come into the world fresh, although I've already seen the movie Stalker a few times and am reading the Strugatskys' novel, which I know are only distant inspirations given the game's back story, but was trying to get in the mood.

Startup: Watched the intro movie, which has a different dialog than the subtitles, which I found funny, even though I know how this sort of thing can happen in localization. Could have been a bit less full of explanations, but at least I understood what my character's role was by the end.

Graphics Fiddling: took the greatest amount of time of anything here. The screen was wavy, I think because we still use a VGA cable. Any people familiar with current age video stuff? I'm betting if we upgrade the cable it'll make it look less burbly. I wound up dropping a lot of the settings just out of wanting the game to run smoothly.

Graphical Settings: I finally settled on something middle-to-low, but I'm not sure it made much of a difference to the wavy screen now that I think of it.

Experience: Walked forward through the low-textured landscape; the grass waving about was good despite my low graphics settings, and I told myself I'd get used to the compromises I made once I got into the game. I reach the crest of a small hill after trying desperately to climb up the sides of cliffs that surrounded the starting area, finding two dudes who are in the middle of a steaming crater. After accidentally dipping a foot in a chemical bath, which seemed to cause some damage, I walk up to the first dude. I don't bother to look up if I can hit a key to talk to the one who is staying back. He's encouraging another guy to go forward into the crater to measure something, so I follow measuring guy, then walk past him, and my chunky body promptly flops to the ground, dead.

Aftermath: I play a full game of Solium Infernum.

Returning to the game now. Hopefully I can make a sturdier mind-game connection or I may wait until I get a better cable. I'll learn the lesson from my predecessor and not be excessively curious. :)

Edit: Getting much farther now. Graphics still troubled, probably due to my machine being passable when the game came out, but have managed to find the starting Stalker base, and pop out now and again to die in all kinds of ways. Still can't figure out if there's a way to sell common junk, though. I'm secretly hoping not since it's a bit crazy to run into a vendor who will buy EVERYTHING.

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#7  Edited By ahoodedfigure

@oneidwille: Ultimately, a lot of what will shine on repeat playthroughs is exactly what you're talking about. If you like this sort of game, it works well and is fun to play. There's a segment of us who have been hoping, though, for a game that knows how to treat narratives in video games for so long that it's bound to come across as hyperbole to people who aren't so fixated on this question.

As one of those fixated types, I was happy when the game paced its narrative to the gameplay, and that it confidently held back on telling us everything, just telling us enough to help push us forward. It was so rare that it felt like a gift. The high quality music helped too... all this from a small team.

It's common with just about anything to be affected by first impressions; it's one of the reasons I tend to stay away from previews. For many it may not affect enjoyment directly, but when you're exposed to someone throwing a blanket of praise on a game, or hate, we tend to push against that when we experience it for ourselves.

I'm interested to see what impressions of this game will be further down the road, when most of the reviews are forgotten. Games really only become classics, I think, when new players recognize why a game is still remembered, even if the reasons aren't the same as those who initially played. Secretly I hope that a lot of their ideas will be taken up by new designers, such that we'd fail to understand why people liked it so much. Recognizing a that a game was good enough to be copied in small bits by the next generation is a high compliment.

That you didn't get the same experience that others seemed to isn't a bad thing; as long as you liked the game on some level you weren't wasting your time playing it.

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#8  Edited By ahoodedfigure

@pyromagnestir: @ArbitraryWater: @Animasta:

I'm referring to this mod called The Sith Lords Restored, although I don't know if it's any more complete than the one you guys mention.

@Leptok: Since I played them in reverse, it was weird to go BACKWARDS as far as the game system (I think KOTOR2's game systems are improved across the board) but to have a more solid feeling story made me instantly realize why the first one was so popular.

@Akyho: I'm having the same problem if I went back to the first one, especially now that I revisit the sequel and see all the cool improvements they made to the engine. I do gunslinger builds myself, and as long as I spam dexterity it seems to work out. Kotor2's difficulty seems to be a bit uneven, but it's not unassailably hard even on the highest difficulty level, which means encounters are sorta fun for me, rather than my feeling like I've hit a leveling wall.

If you try the Sith Lords Restored mod let me know.

@captain_max707: Normally I'm not a fan of the extended universe, despite being a Star Wars fan my whole life pretty much, but the Old Republic stuff seems to do it right. Gets as close to that Star Wars feeling as anything short of watching ep IV or V for me.

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#9  Edited By ahoodedfigure

My Knights of the Old Republic 2 is the first Old Republic game I ever played. Played it before the original Knights, and I played the XBox version, which could not be patched (or if it could it didn't matter since I was never online with this thing). After finishing the Bounty Hunter story mode in the MMO version I thought I'd go revisit this game, which I hadn't played in a very long time... many years.

Having just got off a MMO treadmill it's refreshing to do plunge forward without worrying as much about my level, the game was hard in places but the proper application of tactics got me all the way, in just a few days, from the beginning to the place where a shuttle crashes AGAIN, this time into the snowy polar region of Telos. It was nice to actually GET what the story was behind Telos is now, as with the Mandalorian wars, Revan and Malak, the whole bit. Makes KOTOR2 feel a little less isolated. The writers at times are very inventive and seem less stodgy than the KOTOR 1 counterparts, the latter seeming to desire to make everything fit a rhetorical pattern at times, though this organic feeling to conversations also makes things more prone to odd behavior. I do find a bit of joy in not being hedged into Good and Bad choices, even the good ones ended messily for me in the orbital station, and I got to be bad by proxy as a droid running around extorting money from innocents.

Of all the Old Republic games, KOTOR2 also does the best when it comes to modding and character builds. Even if SWTOR has more overall builds possible, you are given a lot of different options in KOTOR2 when it comes to breaking down and building items, and building characters. It really adds to the replay value, even if you're like me and just want to have someone shooting a gun rather than using Jedi magic.

I haven't crashed the shuttle on the polar caps yet... I get the feeling it's right there that things start to become a bit buggy and absent. Maybe it's not so much that the game is better in a lot of ways, but it is DIFFERENT, it shows what others might do with the same system and that's refreshing.

I'm not looking forward to the mess that's coming, and I'm not happy with all of their choices (at times they seem to channel more Star Trek than Star Wars), but it's a palate cleanser after all the Bioware stuff I've been playing this past year. I'm thinking of doing a comparison of the two KOTORs and SWTOR, I think all three are clear enough in my mind right now that this seems like an easy enough exercise.

Anyone out there try the modded KOTOR2?

...

Although I know others have modded the game extensively, I more meant this new one which seems to be more complete in its additions and fixes: http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-sith-lords-restored-content-mod-tslrcm/downloads

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#10  Edited By ahoodedfigure

@jorbear: Reason I asked was that I think playing the agent as an "alien" adds an interesting subtext to the story, since you're basically working for an Empire that is open in its dislike of non-humans. There are a few added lines that help solidify this.

Funny that all the Imperials speak Space-British in the game, when in the movies there are some Imperials who have American accents too, including the dude that Vader first chokes.