I generally agree with you OP.

My feelings are that there more than enough racing games out there. It’s OK that this one version of GT is laser focused on competitive racing. I appreciate not all GT fans want this (I don’t, my brother does, for ex) but I also think it’s good for them to try new things. I also think that if any racing franchise is ever going to cultivate an online culture of not crashing into each other, it could be GT to do it.

While the Sportsmanship approach is a little embarassing, it’s badly needed in all games. Same reason this board has rules and moderators to police it - people can suck. Not the best implementation maybe, but an idea I hope catches on long-term.

@notnert427: Thanks for the thorough response. I did have someone elsewhere mention that they thought Rafuxo10's driving was certainly not "excellent" as I labelled it in the video. My take on it was just that it looked like a genuine accident to me, but of course he could've stopped to let him by. This of course basically takes you out of the lead group entirely and because this is a game, I think for most people its all or nothing. I'm seeing more people quit the session (still only one per session maybe) and DNF when incidents like this happen. Except I think this is an attitude that is based in the people who typically play single player offline stuff. They just want to win. This group will inevitably thin out or adjust as time goes on, further improving the player roster.

I'll say that another race I had yesterday, I would've taken the lead on a clean pass (last lap) but the 1st place guy spun out, clipped my rear, and I went into the wall as the grid went by. He actually seemed to slow down and let me pass and I ended up in 6th. He apologized after the race and I said no big deal.

"Theoretically, Rafuxo10 probably should have ghosted for his poor line, sailed through tha3DgoatKILLA off the track, and watched as he got passed by several people."

This is true. My only defense of this is that I've seen the ghosting system do exactly that multiple times. It isn't perfect. Polyphony has pointed out (even in the update notes in-game) that the ghost system steps in less and less as the driver rank gets higher. They haven't put into detail exactly how that works though. Is it an average level of the group in the session? Is it based on the lowest or highest driver rating? Is it on a per-driver basis in the room?

"Fast forward to the next lap where you hit Rafuxo10 on this same turn from accidentally braking too late. It appears that the game not only allows you to send him nearly off the track, but that it penalizes him for getting hit and slows down his car when he actually didn't do anything wrong at all there."

Yea unfortunately I can't see the details of what happened to him. It's possible he wasn't penalized from my hit, but from going slightly off course on the inside of that corner and it gave him a shortcut penalty. Or he may have just wanted me to go by, either because he didn't like having me behind him because he felt I was going to keep hitting him or maybe he just felt I was faster and would rather chase me. I don't know. In a different race yesterday, I was given a 10 second penalty on the last couple corners on the last lap. I'm not sure why and even went back and checked the replay and still wasn't sure. I lost my 2nd place position and was dumped back to 4th I think.

"And how does this stuff shake out in terms of after-the-race "Sportsmanship Rank" stuff? Did you "earn" points there for not passing Rafuxo10 when you hit him? Or did you "lose" points for hitting him in the first place? Is it even unsportsmanlike to hit Rafuxo10 anyway after he took first place via a much shittier maneuver that took out another driver? And what of poor tha3DgoatKILLA? It seems like he not only lost, but got seriously dinged on sportsmanship for being hit, if the ghost is any indication. Is it "better" to take a clean 6th place from getting blasted off the track or a dirty 2nd from blasting someone off the track? Is there even a way to parse out how all this actually affects the race results and sportsmanship rankings and why?"

This is a bit more meta. First, I'll say that there isn't much for actual rewards from these Daily Races. It's a small amount of credits, plus the 150% bonus if you have a "clean race". I've got 8 mil credits and nothing I care to use them on. Mileage Points have a more valuable use, but you get them just for driving, regardless of finish, and they are also somewhat plentiful. So at this point, the only thing people are really concerned about is the ratings, but that's a significant incentive in a competitive thing like this. It's all about the pride and ego, hence the corny "You don't want to look bad" racing etiquette videos, yet is entirely accurate.

In terms of whether it's fair or Sportsman-like to hit Rafuxo10 after he caused that incident, well.. I imagine you already know the answer to that lol Two wrongs don't make a right. I get your point though.

Just like Rafuxo10, I can't say for sure what sort of penalties tha3DgoatKILLA received. There is the little colored Driver and Safety Rating letters at the result screen (blue/increase, red/decrease) but I don't remember or didn't look at it. Part of me hopes either of them will somehow come across this video and answer these questions.

I want to add that I do believe iRacing has something of a "Race Director" i.e. an actual person who can go back and review the events, alter results, and pass final judgement. You can submit an issue post-race with details and they'll look into it. I'm going to assume that GT Sport won't have a feature like this, for Daily Races at least. The severity and seriousness of these incidents are going to, potentially, be much more important in the official, sanctioned seasonal races.

"Maybe it's just me, but I want no part of a game whose enjoyment seems largely predicated on the individual integrity of anonymous others online. Call me jaded, but people are jerks and will generally cut corners to win, figuratively and literally. I'm just not remotely optimistic that this game could possibly even find a large collection of people willing to say, "well, I placed 6th, but it was a good, clean race and that's the real victory; sporting effort, fellow chaps!" Maybe it will. Maybe their sportsmanship algorithm will prove itself over time and curate a wonderful community that sticks with this game. I'm just not seeing it."

This is where a lot of the fascination comes from for me. It seems like it wouldn't work but it's sort of a self curating system. People really care about those ratings, and as your rating increases and you're put with other drivers with that same rating, that factor just kinda compounds itself? It basically comes down to what I mentioned earlier about the pride or honor as you put it. Something that is an integral part of Sportsmanship, but isn't factored into the rating though is post race chat obviously lol.

I've been doing a couple races each day now and continue to be thoroughly impressed at the quality of racing and I've just hit rank B (under A and S I think?). In all the races I've done, at least the ones I've gone back and watched, the entire grid usually makes it through the first turn smoothly. That's unheard of in your run-of-the-mill racing games. They switched up the Daily Races again today (third rotation now in a week) and one is a 10 lap race (I heard it takes roughly 20 mins). Previously they've been 3 or 4 laps. People still want even longer races. Mini hour-long endurance races could be awesome, where an accident here and there doesn't mean the race is over for you. People are excited the races take longer and, if the racing is close and clean, they don't seem to care where they finish necessarily because it's just plain fun. You still get that same adrenaline rush no matter what position you're in, as long as there is a car in front, behind, or both.

In closing, I really think they've got a phenomenal foundation here to build on. We just need to see the follow through on content. That will make or break this. It's slightly surprising we haven't heard a detailed DLC plan yet, but its mostly an online game and they're busy patching and making adjustments. And mind you, I'm still seeing plenty of backlash about everything this game isn't for a big group of people. They are dropping off rather quickly, while I'm seeing others who were never really into the online racing of games past, are finding this new element to be super exciting and I guess are beginning to feel there isn't much need for AI based content.

Extra Extra

@notnert427:If I may comment on the SR system, it actually does a really excellent job (I'd say 95% IMO) of grading. I'd also rate the ghosting as excellent as well, just overall the online multiplayer experience is great (latency is low, not a lot of cars teleporting around, etc). To answer some of your questions, you first need to put a few things into perspective. This is most likely a high level DR/SR race (I believe @seikenfreak said his rating was at B now; and I would highly assume that is his DR with his SR probably being A-S rank). So what this means is that ghosting has been lowered (it actually turns off completely at a certain DR/SR) to allow for a more "realistic" race, so if people screw up they can sometimes take others with them. Sure, this can always lead to possible abuse cases like what might have happened in the video when the gray GTR bounced off the green lambo to make the turn; but I would imagine he took a pretty heavy SR hit and it isn't something he would be able to do consistently w/o dropping back into the lower more heavily ghosted races.

In my experience, at the D DR and with B-A SR, ghosting is definitely more frequent as people drive poorly or make mistakes. Likewise, for SR there is no single "if X then drop SR" or "if Y then not your fault" systems. They had to have put a ton of hours into developing this thing because it really does seem like it looks at the bigger picture when deciding SR up/down/neutral. There are times I have been hit in the back and still had my SR go up (they took the turn too fast), there are times I've ran into the back of someone else and had my SR still go up (they braked too early), there are times I've been bumped sideways and still had my SR go up, and everything else in between. There are plenty of times I've had contact and got a neutral SR for that section of the track, and on the whole I normally agree with 95+% of the decisions that I get. It basically all comes down to this: If you are driving properly then you normally have your SR go up. I know "properly" is a very loaded word, and requires some experience to fully understand. But it really is like the meme-worthy video says: "Don't drive like an asshole" (the more literal translation of "don't look bad"). If someone beat you on a turn, don't try to block them off or drive them off the road. Don't hit other cars if you can avoid it. Don't try to drive recklessly (tapping brakes) to get the drivers behind you to screw up.

@seikenfreak@ev77:

I really appreciate y'all's insight into this system, and I admire your patience with it and your obvious effort to play the game as it's intended. I think my problem with it largely stems from a lack of feedback. The whole sportsmanship system needs to be way more transparent. I'm thinking along the lines of a -100 feedback indicator on the screen, or better yet, detailed analysis on the replays themselves. I suspect it's not there because it would expose some of the weaknesses of the algorithm's judgment. I don't expect it to be perfect, but it would certainly be helpful if it at least explained where it docks a racer so players could learn and get better. Also, if I put myself in tha3DgoatKILLA's shoes, I'd want to be able to see what sportsmanship penalty, if any, Rafuxo10 got for knocking me off the track. I feel like the game owes him at least that knowledge.

I know I've been kinda trashing the game, but I genuinely want it to find its footing. It just seems a tall order to systemically try and keep random, anonymous online players in line and on board, and it seems like the game requires trusting their system and accepting its judgments, which is something I'd personally struggle with, especially without much explanation. I respect what they're trying to do with this online experience, because at its best, I imagine it is cool. At its worst, though, I believe I'd find the lack of a typical GT campaign against AI to be a sorely missed alternative. I'd be curious to hear how the official events go in early November. Until then, keep on racing, duders.

@notnert427: Actually seikenfreak skipped it; but at the end of the race when it pops out back to the standings list it shows how everyone's SR changed (blue means they gained, gray means it stayed the same, and red means it went down). So if you feel someone drove real poorly you can see how their SR changed at the end of the race. I will say that the replay editor does NOT show the SR when you replay it (which is a real bummer). But, you can just hit the share button and save the last 10 minutes of gameplay to record your race to see how your SR changed throughout it (and the end result) to get a better idea of how it grades. Not a perfect system by any means; but decent enough I feel.