I am afraid about the future of the Supreme Court and hence America

Things do seem rather dire right now, huh? The one single silver lining I can imagine this having is driving dem turnout higher.

I pay my respects to Ruth Bader Ginsburg for her service.

Thankfully this sort of thing does not fall within my powers as a citizen, so I'm not concerning myself with it too much. Though I will say, Trump is not a man that I have confidence in...with anything, including nominating a justice of quality. And McConnell is not to be trusted either; "The American people should have a voice in the selection of their next Supreme Court Justice..." demonstrates carelessness for the selection process. A partisan judge is an incompetent judge. It is inappropriate to weigh the input of the average American in this matter.

I'm very precious about the judiciary; I think it's a rare source of sobriety in our government. I hate to see it wrestled over by sharks who smell blood in the water.

The worm, Lindsay Graham, signaled that he will backtrack from what he said in the past about not voting on a judge during an election year. So that leaves 2 Repubs out there favoring a delay. Still need 2 more.

Arizona has a special election going on where the democratic challenger is leading. If he wins he could be sworn in around November and offer +1 resistance vote.

Yeah, talk is cheap, it turns out. The shocking part is that people believed him for even a second. This is why the filibuster and every other tool the Republicans employ needs be removed as soon as the democrats have the power to do it. Until the Senate is purged of these fucks, they cannot be trusted.

Here's one article advising us not to panic. Take it for what it's worth.

https://theweek.com/articles/938534/why-democrats-shouldnt-panic-about-rbgs-death

Partisan politics are the worst. I'd say the US has 2-3 more elections in it before the nation rips itself apart. Graham was right about one thing, allowing the nuclear option to be extended to supreme court justices / executive appointees was terrible. It virtually guarantees neither party needs to work together for any reason on appointees such as this.

Very.

Try to do what you can. Some shit on it but doing any form of activism may help some. Also try to push your representatives to embrace packing the court.

hmm- well, just speaking from my personal perspective- i'm waaay past believing we (Americans) live in a country where politicians are held to account for both their words and actions. our president lies on a daily basis, and it's shrugged off as a personality quirk. and i think it's done irreparable damage- just spitballing here, but if Trump were to announce tomorrow he has a vaccine and everyone should go grab it- that's the very last thing i'd do, because:

• i don't trust him
• he puts his needs before others
• i've never heard him apologize or accept responsibility for a single thing, ever

and that kills me because he's our fucking president (and purportedly held to higher standard than most), and i am deeply pro-vaccination as a health care worker. any medical advice re: covid i receive is coming mid level NIH physicians or bust- the CDC sullies itself almost as frequently as the white house.

that's a tangent- but this is all to say i fully trust Trump will find a way to get his choice on the bench, and there will be zero meaningful opposition. there will be much clutching of pearls and gnashing of teeth- but political risk-taking to protect the process? yeah, alright- whatever you say boss.

ps- just a thought, but maybe it's time to revisit the way we staff our supreme court in this country. RBG was a paragon of progress- but this quagmire we're stepping into was seen from hundreds of miles away.

pps- everyone who can should go get their flu shot, now. if you think you're above it- do it for the health care infrastructure and essential workers that need it more than you do. like masks it is as much for protecting others as it is yourself.

@atheistpreacher: anything based on catching Republicans in hypocrisy is doomed to fail. They are constantly hypocritical to anyone who cares to check. Trump goes against everything he said before.

Not saying to give up just saying I found that central point very faulty.

I'm not worry because this is a small set back. Listen, Row V Wade passed in the 70s when even liberal justices where more towards the side of not wanting to support abortions - yet it passed. In fact, what people forget is the THREE Texas judges of the lower court in Texas where the ones who unanimously agree Texas' anti-abortion law was uncosnstitional. The US Supreme Court UPHELD the decision of those Texas judges.

The direction of courts world-wide has been going liberal for 200 years. Hell what is now considered conservative is far left of the courts from 100 years ago. More rights, more inclusion, and more open minds have prevailed steadily for the past 100 years in the East, West, and Middle East. Even the ultra-religious conservatism of the late 20th century was a blip...a last gasp of ultra-conservatism in the wake of post colonialism. And, yes, even American Evangelicalism is a POST COLONIAL push back that is failing.

Lifetime appointments for anything are so fundamentally undemocratic.

For more than a decade, I have actually believed that the United States is too large--both geographically and by population--to exist as a functioning democracy. I'm not advocating wide-spread secessionist movements or anything. Although I believe in the human right of self-determination, I'm aware of the flaws inherent in that belief. I just...yeah. I think there's probably a hard limit to the size of a functioning democracy.

John McCain is rolling over in his grave for ever thinking Lindsay Graham was his ally. It turns out Graham is as self serving as McConnell. I hope his hypocrisy will lose him his election. He deserves it. Additionally, I am afraid if this nomination goes through that it will set a new precedent where the senate will not confirm any Justice nominated by a president from another party regardless of if it’s an election year or not.

I think you and I must be reading an entirely different article. It has nothing to do with changing the way Republicans are acting. As you say, that is doomed to fail. They've already amply shown that they're happy to be dishonest hypocrites and keep right in truckin'.

The point is that if the Republicans now insist on speeding someone through the process before the election, it gives Democrats license to be just as ruthless as their opponents and fight back with extreme measures that would otherwise be politically untenable... like simply appointing four more justices to bring the count to thirteen. Which, if they got the Senate back, they could do. A big "if" there, but it could happen. If Biden gets elected, they only need 50.

To quote the high points from the article:

While there would [have been] loud clamoring from certain ramparts of the left to expand the Court anyway... the effort would not likely have succeeded. Biden himself is too much of a committed institutionalist to endorse court-packing absent a fresh provocation...

But if Republicans insist on filling Ginsburg's seat with some Federalist Society drone, it totally changes the calculus, both for Biden and for the most right-wing Democratic senators... A President Biden and his Senate, no matter how thin the majority, would come under enormous pressure to respond in kind to the GOP's ruthlessness. And the bloc of centrist Democratic senators would then have a much more compelling story to tell their constituents when they vote to add four or more justices to the Supreme Court...

It's not about principles, or election year exceptions, or fair play. It's about the exercise of raw power, and the determination to use as much of it as the legal order allows.

Do you think Democrats wouldn't expand the Court if McConnell and the Republicans insist on reneging on their own nonsense precedent from 2016? Think again. It wasn't long after the news broke before Sen. Ed Markey (D-Mass.) announced on Twitter that, "Mitch McConnell set the precedent. No Supreme Court vacancies filled in an election year. If he violates it, when Democrats control the Senate in the next Congress, we must abolish the filibuster and expand the Supreme Court." Mark my words: this will be the Democratic Party's official line by the end of the weekend.

Anyway, I'm not saying that all of this doesn't suck in a big way. It does. But if the sane half of the country can be vocal enough, and go out and vote and kick Trump's ass out, and then continue to put pressure on the Democratic party to actually f-ing do something like the above, to actually start being a little ruthless themselves, then there are still ways to salvage this.

Will it happen? I dunno. Trusting the Dems to grow a spine is a thin hope, but more likely than waiting for the GOP to grow a conscience, and I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet.

1000% agreed. this is probably a discussion for another thread- but the notion that a farmer in Iowa shares the same core values as a financier in NYC, or that a SF tech bro would have the same priorities as a cop in El Paso- it's absurd. a country of 330 million people picking a leader from 2 options based on rules that are 250 years old- what could go wrong? i think the durability of the American system was largely a strength in its nascent days- but now we're seeing it collapse under its own weight.

my friends and i joke all the time about a return to a city-state system- but i think it's fundamentally true that the larger a government becomes, the less representative it must become. and that's a problem- when one side wants chocolate, and the other wants vanilla- and the current system produces consensus by way of strawberry- nobody's happy.

except Big Strawberry.

(which is clearly the Industrial Military Complex, duh).

@atheistpreacher: Packing the court is flawed because what is to stop the next Republican administration from packing the courts further. Pretty soon, we will have 100 Supreme Court Justices. Where will it end?

Again, not saying both the situation and this proposed solution don't suck. They do. But the Republicans have already shown that they're willing to entirely ignore precedent by refusing to vote on Garland, enacting the nuclear option on SC appointments, and now (in all likelihood) breaking their own precedent again with this vacancy. At some point you just have to start fighting fire with fire. The GOP keeps escalating their nonsense, so the Dems need to escalate back. What's the alternative? Just suck it up and do nothing?

Incidentally, the whole situation made me recall this scene from The West Wing, which is about campaign finance, but makes the same basic point that I'm trying to make above:

In short: the Dems aren't going to get anywhere by trying to be moral and upstanding, and hoping that the GOP is suddenly going to stop running full speed ahead through any justification or loophole they can find. The Dems need to start playing by the actual rules, not by the genteel standards and precedents that they wish were the rules. Packing the court is allowed by law. So start playing the actual game and f-ing do it. It's what the GOP has been doing for a while now.

Packing the court is the natural result the tactics used by the Republicans to secure an overwhelming majority in the court. Break rules and norms, the other side will respond with the same tactic. This is not the first time the country has go through this. The main reason the court has been viewed as neutral was because the even split of Conservative and liberal justices. And the Chief Justice trying very hard not to become the center of legislative change.

Also, polling consistently shows the majority of Americans are uncomfortable with a stacked court for either party. The Republican base has been largely mobilized around controlling the court and there for, control what laws can exist through the courts. It’s all the perks of legislation, with out the pesky need to pass laws and be held accountable for said laws. So they don’t need to outlaw abortion, for instance, just make it so laws requiring any abortion have the written consent of the father(witnessed by at least 2 people and the doctor) upheld and maybe applied nation wide.

The Democrats can’t re-establish the norms. Obeying the rules won’t inspire the other side to stop breaking them. Only the people breaking the norms can fix the problem by taking actions to re-establish trust. Until then, the only route is to fight until the other side asks for peace.

Well fucking said. All of this. Every word.

To supplement,

Vote AND. Our govt won't allow you to vote away their power. You are only allowed to vote on the people they select, and even then your votes mean much less than they should, assuming they're even counted, and that's assuming you don't have to work or attend to family issues on election day. And, the people they select for us? The "progressive" party selected someone more regressive than their predecessor; someone who's views today are less progressive than Republicans of the early 80s. So, yes, vote. But we are too far gone for that to be enough. There are people in your area, anywhere in the country, who want to fix things. It's likely there are already groups formed that you could join. If you live in a big city I guarantee there are.

If you aren't able to do that, there's an easier, equally powerful thing we should all do, that many of us don't. When a friend or family member says something you know is fucked up or ignorant, don't let it slide because you know it'll cause friction or kill the mood. I do that. I used to do that even more. The past few years I've been trying to stand up for what I believe and it's shockingly rewarding. Not only do the people that you challenge not hate your guts, but they respect you even more for checking them. It also spreads awareness, and, if enough people in their lives start standing up to them, maybe they'll change their ideas about things. From there it's a chain-reaction if they start spreading information like you did. I'm not saying make this your sole personality trait, but if someone says something dumb make sure you correct them swiftly.

Register to vote.

Vote.

Call your Senators and Representatives.

Don't ever let up.

Vote. And develop a hard nose for the future.

Look at who is supported as the present incumbent. Morals and fair play have long been thrown out the window. I honestly think a dictator (of some sort) is what is now desired by many of the Incumbents base. The play on blanket Fear says all that needs to be said.

As for Ginsburg, she did her best.

@robertforster: As someone currently living in Europe in a country ruled by a right wing Conservative party that has a majority and is able to vote things through on their own overnight, and have also inserted their own Supreme Court judges and appointed many other officials in key locations to further control very aspect of the law .. yah, it’s not like only the US has fucked up politics at the moment. It just so happens that US politics are the most public.

Before we scream doom and gloom let’s remember that this is not the first time Republicans had 6 to 3 Supreme Court majority.

Senate will likely flip to Democrat soon, things will be kept in check, all will be ok (I hope)

@humanity: It also doesn't help that the US is the world's richest country with an outsize influence on geopolitics and global institutions.

Those eras of the court kinda sucked. A lot of folks would prefer not to go back to the Hughes Court of the 1930s or the ones that followed. I would encourage folks to read up on that the court during that time when Congress and FDR were arguing to stack the Court. Even though the bill failed, it was a warning shot at the court that they couldn't rule imperial during a crisis like the Great Depression. And it will show that the court is a political entity that is not naturally neutral. We view it as neutral because the chief justices tried very hard to keep the court out of congresses firing line.

Many of the rulings that have come out of the current court gutted things like the voters rights act and limited unions for federal employees. The ruling against unions for federal employees emblematic of the things people fear about a conservatives court. Prior to the ruling, non-union members still needed to pay reduced union dues because the union represented them even if they were not members. The union is required to represent all employees of a given role by federal law. The Supreme Court ruled that non-union members were not longer required to pay dues because it violated their right to freedom of association. However, the ruling did not address the fact that the union is required by law to represent all employees, non-union members included. So freedom of association a right for non-union members, but not union members.

Now, the reason this entire set of rules exists in the first place is because unions used to employ a number of tactics to assure all employees were members. Such as securing better pay for union members only or assuring the union members worked the most desirable positions. And a few less than legal ways to convince everyone that being part of the union was better for them. It was bad for everyone, from employees to employers. And it went on for a very long time(decades) before the compromise that was these laws were put in place.

Many of the laws the one I described above and the voters rights act didn't come about because it was the right thing to do. They came about as ways to stop conflicts that resulted in violence and strife across the country. The Voters Rights act wasn't passed until after MLK as murdered, setting off the some of the worst riots in American history. Violence on a scale that would make us all cower under our beds.

The people pushing for the conservative courts want to remove those laws, either because they believe they no longer necessary or they wish to be able to do things like suppress minority voters. The motivating force for a lot of them is removing Roe v. Wade, making abortion illegal(through state laws that will be passed) in most of the country. But if you want to be truly dismayed, ask one of them if they have considered what happens after Roe v. Wade is overturned and abortion is illegal in the majority of the US. Every time I received the same answer, which is they haven't really thought about how angry this country will be after that. And they 100% don't want to discuss it.

So, yeah, its not the end of the world. But it pretty much assures a decade or more of political strife.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. Now back to video games.

Especially when those most of those lifetime appointments were made with the intent of lasting for decades by office-holders elected by a minority of the population.

And I would agree with you that the United States government, as it exists now, is not a functioning democracy. There are too many giant flaws in the structure of the overall government, how we allocate power, and our institutions themselves. We're hitting an inflection point where insane levels of partisanship, geographic, racial, and educational sorting that exacerbate the flaws in our government, increasing willingness to toss ahead long-standing norms about how to govern properly, and (in particular) a party without popular support that is committed to maintaining power through minority rule. Power doesn't reflect the popular will, at all, and even when a party actually wins significant power, it's impossible to get anything done.

But I don't accept that there isn't a functioning democracy that couldn't government the United States. It's going to require some radical rethinking of our democracy though. Smaller, immediate things like tossing aside the filibuster and allowing parties that win power to actually do something (and be judged on doing it) and passing voting rights acts with teeth that actually support proper enfranchisement of people in each state. And giant things like ensuring popular vote-driven elections, admitting additional states (DC and Puerto Rico) that will help mitigate the insane rural/urban divide in power that exists in the Senate now, and rethinking the formation and membership of the Supreme Court.

Lots of stuff that needs to be done immediately (assuming Democrats win power and can do so), lots of other stuff that are long-term goals that will require years of action or constitutional amendments. It's not impossible to govern the United States, but it's impossible with the government and leadership we have now.

Gay marriage has enough right-wing support that they won't be able to touch that. And the ruling was very definitive. Roe v Wade, ACA, affirmative action, any environmental ruling, civil rights, privacy, you name it, they'll gut it for more power though.

If it's any consideration, Republicans aren't going to demolish Roe V. Wade. The problem with Republicans is that they're not an idea party; they don't offer plans or solutions for anything. What they do offer is a contrarian vote for..whatever democrats are about. It's the only way they actually gain any level of support. So even if the worst does happen, life is not going to turn in to The Handmaiden's tale overnight.

To be fair, it's not for Republicans--it is for independents and people on the fence. Democrats are banking that focusing on that hypocrisy will bring people who aren't completely red to vote against Trump and those who are entirely complici.

Canadian here, but I read a lot of American politics. And honestly your country terrifies me right now, it's like watching a constant dumpster fire surrounded by gun-toting idiots refusing to wear masks while screaming about "Q".

Your judicial system is now packed with the most unqualified but young/crazy Right Wing judges they could force in there - thanks McConnell.

Your "President" is so visibly a conman it makes my blood boil, and he is so in over his head if this wasn't real I would swear it's a bad Hollywood movie.

It's like watching a country just constantly going backwards when the rest of the world is just pushing more and more forward.

Every 4-8 years the sky is falling for one partisan party or another, yet fundamentally nothing really changes in the ole USA. Everything one side complains about was in their playbook a few years before or will be in it a few years later. Sure it is easy to blame one side or the other, that is tribalism for you. People forget things like crime bills, illegal wars, human rights violations and mass deportations when it is their side pulling the trigger.

Until the majority of citizens get it through their heads that the two primary parties are two sides of the same twisted coin that have been trading power for 200 years without progress, the old girl will just keep on spinning.

@bmccann42: Yep. It's a real shame because such a huge portion of the population doesn't support what's happening. And we're just... watching it happen. It sucks.

@adamalc: Dude I really hope you are right, but the last 4 years have just been a series on mitigated problems, corruption, and the constant dumbing down of America. Now I am an outsider (come on up to Toronto some time), but watching how Trump has managed to just make a mess of just about everything while seemign to just skate on all of it boggles my mind.

And that old girl just might stop spinning some time, its happened to equally powerful nations throughout history - take a listen to the Revolutions podcast on teh French Revolution to get a good idea what happens when a country loses it's collective mind and decides to just start settling scores.

@adamalc: Powerful "This is Fine" energy.

@csl316: I remember the Rob Ford years here in Toronto, and everyday was like "What fresh hell is this?". and that's just one big city, you have a whole country that looks like it is getting ready to implode.

I seriously wonder how you guys were able to fight World War 2 and put a man on the moon but effective and safe elections doesn't work? Up here our elections are essentially run on the power of senior citizens, students, and some government poll workers and we cna have an accurate count within 3 hours of the polls closing.

@bmccann42: he skates because he has not done anything that can't be repealed by the next administration. He is a buffoon, and like a good buffoon talks a big game without really doing anything. He encourages a bunch of folks, who were already the way they are, to talk about it in public. America has been dumbing itself down for decades, much like the rest of the world. The sum of human information at our fingertips and we rely of third party sources to dramatize and feed it to us. The media spends every 4-8 years vilifying one man to the delight of the masses while Congressmen/women sit in office for decades getting wealthy and fat off the same big businesses they claim to despise. It is political theatre for an audience of 300 million that don't vote but complain about the outcome.

Eventually the US will fall, all countries do, but if countries like France can survive the hell they have put their people and the world through for centuries I think the US can survive Donald Trump.

@bmccann42: Hang on tight. What happens in the States often filters up to us within about 5-10 years. Anti-mask protests with a strong splash of QAnon conspiracy hysterics is already on display in the streets of major Canadian cities.

With the stunning original thought that "Both Sides are Bad".

@efesell: I don't know what part of calling for a third party to upset the apple cart made you think I see things as fine, but you do you.

@bmccann42: Unfortunately there's no, succinct reasoning to answer that question. The only thing I can say is that Trump represents the long degradation of American morales. Trump and his cronies represent everything that America is now: greed, cowardness, and lack of accountability. And these assholes tricked the common people making us believe that, "actually, it isn't the government's job to care for its people, people need to care for themselves." Personal Responsibility became the law of the land, and Politicians and Businesses began raping the land. Allowing middle class whites to take the hits, and then putting the blame on poor people who apparently have more power to shape the country than the people who, you know, run the country.

Both parties are guilty of this. But I'd argue that there's some room for maneuverability within the Democrats--siding with Republicans is fucking suicide.

@bmccann42:

It's like watching a country just constantly going backwards

Yup.

the rest of the world is just pushing more and more forward

Ehhhh...

@duxa: Please stop talking sensible

sure am glad mitt showed himself to be the true anti-trump renegade we all believed him to be by getting right in line to push a judge through.

vote them all out. no one in government deserves the benefit of the doubt. or as maya angelou said:

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

Folks should watch to see how things play out, because a lot of the Senators that might block the vote are saying they will "Vote for a qualified nominee if the vote comes to the senate floor. " There are a bunch of steps from nomination to full vote before the senate, so they may be hedging that it won't come to a vote before the election. And there are now strong polling numbers showing that most people oppose the seat being filled right before the election.

I'm doubtful that they wouldn't try to slam through through, I'm just not sure they will pull it off when they have other things, like a spending bill, that have to be passed. And that pesky election where 21 Republicans are running for office.

This is true. It usually takes more than a month and change to nominate and confirm a Supreme Court justice. That's not to say it can't be done in that amount of time and that there isn't any reason to be concerned, but Congress has limited bandwidth. The government shuts down in a few days unless it passes a spending bill and many Senators are currently worrying about re-election. So it's really impossible to say with certainty how things will play out at this point.

But it brings us right back to “praying that Republicans act like human beings.”

Not the best gamble to take.

If anything the last few years have shown ya’ll what the outside world has known all along.

You guys are nuts. Dont worry though, you’re not the only one’s. :)

@robertforster: I wouldn't worry about it too much. Most of the hype is just because it is an election year and they are getting people riled up so they will go vote. Fear is good motivator. Let's say they overturn Roe v Wade, which they wouldn't, but lets take that scenario, then it would just go to the States. The other issue I see being pumped is gay marriage which is ratified in every State so it would still be legal even if the court changed it, which they wont. The GOP and DNC are in major transitions right now. The old stodgy GOP is aging out or leaving the party making it more of a populist party with a patriotic base. I am not sure what the DNC is transitioning to, but it seems like a populist party also. There will be some clingers, but most of what people are worried about is just media and twitter pumped drama. Trumps top choice is Amy Coney Barrett and she is a big believer in Stare decisis meaning "let the decision stand". She would not likely re-litigate old judgments. I know people are pumping up RGB right now, but she has had some questionable decisions, example: read what she said about making the age of consent 12.

democrats still believe pointing out hypocrisy will annoy republicans

the hypocrisy is the point, the whole world view of the right is being allowed to do things you want to do while stopping things other people want to do