Game of Thrones - Season 8 - Game Over

@deathstriker: Defenders of the episode still seem like they're grasping at straws to me. Dany being the most evil person should've been getting developed seasons ago if the writers wanted to do this. Examples of good character development are Hank from Breaking Bad, Zuko from Last Airbender, and Wesley from Angel. I'd formerly put Jamie on that list, but they screwed up his ending. There was a way for him to go back to Cersei, but that wasn't it. Dany would kill her enemies, but not even Cersei or Tywin would do what Dany just did. Dany and Arya are both murderous, but neither one would destroy a city with a million people in it.

I think Dany being the most evil person WAS developed seasons ago. As mentioned, all of her most "heroic" acts are acts of complete merciless brutality; she crucifies, burns, and feeds people to dragons, with very little remorse or sadness at their death. People like Grey Worm, Missandei, and some viewers see this as heroism because the people she's killing are slavers and the like, but she never shows mercy to anyone who refuses to bend the knee. She doesn't take prisoners, and she doesn't negotiate; she gives people one chance to submit COMPLETELY (if that), and murders them if they refuse to take it. The fact that a lot of the people she butted heads with were terrible people is mostly just narrative convenience.

Also, at this point in time she has lost Missandei, arguably her closest friend, and two dragons, who she considers her children. Lysa Arryn was driven to paranoia by the death of her husband, and Cersei was driven to where she is now by the death of two of her children as well; there's a precedence set of people being driven mad by the death of loved ones.

Lastly, I don't think Daenerys' heel-turn even ranks in the top five of dumb, out-of-character decisions in Game of Thrones, even if you consider it a dumb heel-turn (I think it makes sense, but obviously some people don't). Just off the top of my head:

• Khal Drogo accepting medical treatment from a witch whose village was destroyed for a very minor wound is dumb. Daenerys or no, he's a Khal.
• Robb Stark betraying the entire North, and his loyalty as a Stark, because a hot girl made him feel a certain way is the most ridiculous, out-of-character decision I've ever seen, and it's made all the worse that it's so pivotal to the events of the show.
• Jaime raping Cersei is stupid, and out of character for both Jaime and Cersei. That he'd ever try to force himself on her is laughable and disgusting.
• Stannis burning his own daughter at the stake is a harsher heel-turn than Daenerys, honestly. He went from letting Melisandre fuck Gendry to letting her BURN HIS OWN DAUGHTER FOR A COMBAT ADVANTAGE in very little time at all.
• Shae betraying Tyrion may have made sense in the books (I think it's a more contractual relationship in the books), but in the show it comes off as a cheap play to bring Tyrion down.
• Littlefinger somehow not recognizing Arya in Harrenhall, when the Hound is able to recognize her almost instantly, turns him from genius manipulator to clown-shoes dumbass.

There are probably more, but the point is Dany's turn was actually seeded as far back as the end of season 1, and her heel-turn makes more sense than a lot of past moments.

@notnert427: I mean, a lot of that goes down to what ASOIAF/GoT is

Let's roll back to Ned. The Hero gets murdered by the bad people. Anyone can die. Holy shit this series is awesome.

Then you look at it again. Ned was never the hero. Most of book 1 focused on his kids (and Jon Snow) . His kids got the dire wolves. I forget if any Lannister but Tyrion got POV chapters by that point, but it was clear they were interesting characters. And Ned was hilariously naive. He wasn't The Hero. he was Obi-Wan getting killed to motivate the protagonist(s). And this ain't grimdark. It's... Young Adult?

It happened again (moreso in the show) with The Red Wedding. On the surface we have Da North and they are the obvious heroes. But looking back it was clear that Robb had already run his army into the ground over his penis (hey, I guess Jon IS Ned's son) and Cat's plot relevance had long since ended. It wasn't a massive swerve. It was pruning the POV characters and advancing the plot.

And we see the same with Dany. She wasn't The Saviour. She was exactly what everyone in Westeros was afraid of: another Mad Targaryan vying for the throne. I suspect it would have been more fleshed out if we had Faegon, but she was always her father's daughter.

Benefit of the doubt, I think the showrunners thought showing Eyebrows being distraught and whatever was that moment of "oh shit, she snapped". Unfortunately, she isn't a good actress and never has been and I think a monologue (or preferably dialogue) would have gone a long way toward selling the moment. But the plot point was as "obvious" as old Ned getting offed.

Now you all know how we felt when we finished Mass Effect 3.

@notnert427 said:

I totally agree that the arc was not presented in a way that is satisfying. I'm arguing, isn't that the point? I'm not talking about the kills just for shock value. I'm literally talking about what you describe, they spent so much time pandering to the savior angle and pulled a complete 180 rendering her character arc/journey completely useless.

They spent so much time on Ned, until abruptly killing him...rendering his entire arc and journey completely useless.

They spent so much time on Rob and his war and then abruptly killed him...rendering his entire arc and journey...completely useless.

They spent so much time on Stannis only for his war to be rendered meaningless, they have him corrupt all his values...and he then renders his entire arc and journey completely useless.

Like I could KEEP listing. With the last episode having aired, tell me right now other than Jon/Arya and maybe Bran one arc for a character that felt meaningful? That felt like it had overall purpose and wrapped up in a way that satisfied fans of said character? The answer: none. Because that isn't the show your watching. It never was. I feel like people don't really get the Ned thing or the Rob thing. It isn't just about "OMG they killed X." It's how they subvert expectations, they chose to focus more camera time on characters to make them feel pivotal/important in ways that would give audiences the natural assumption of investment. Then once invested, would pop off, and effectively waste the entire time of all the fans invested in that character. The stuff the show has done this season is absolutely in line with that. Only now instead of episodes of investment in Ned or a season or so in like Rob, it's SEASONS of investment and character growth getting throw into the meaningless pile. I'm not saying fans have to like it, I'm just saying that it isn't an affront to what this show is. Again that doesn't excuse any pacing or writing issues which could of made execution of some things better, but the pulling a character 180 to just be like "actually she's just a weak child still" is totally in line with this show imo.

This episode was straight garbage.

Losing a dragon last week didn't teach Dany anything. She just...came in with the same tactics as before, but this time it was more effective? A bunch of Dothraki survived? The Golden Company didn't matter at all? Jaime, who killed the Mad King to save King's Landing, doesn't care about innocents? The Euron/Jaime fight was pointless. Arya abandoning her vengeance quest, only to presumably seek vengeance on Dany next episode. Varys suddenly caring about a ruler's genitalia despite being the one to initially propose Dany as a ruler.

@bladeofcreation: About the Varys part. I think he cared more about her being a tyrant than her genitals. But, he does know that males are just simply more accepted by the majority.

This is largely why I take issue with it. The whole angle of potential rulers rising up and meeting their end works as a short storyline. Dany's screentime, however, has been massive over the course of the show, and 99% of it has been spent trying to portray her as a worthy ruler. So, yeah, it's a bit more annoying when they toss all that aside in a hot second, even if it isn't necessarily that different structurally from what the show has done with other characters as you mentioned. I want to see a compilation of all the other characters worshiping Dany and all the times she's portrayed as a badass and/or hero. That shit would be hours long. Close that video with the clip of her burning a city for no real purpose, and that's kind of my point. The "unburnt, mother of dragons, breaker of chains" crap was already mildly insufferable when we merely suspected that she was being oversold as some savior. That this proved to be the case in the end renders that stuff virtually unwatchable now.

Also, several characters in this show have had interesting and/or satisfying character arcs. Tyrion, Arya, Jaime, Sansa, Hound, Bronn, and Jon to name a few. Some grew and changed over the course of the show, some didn't, but they all felt like well-developed characters. Dany never has, IMO. The show made such an attempt to build her up only to have her heel-turn at the end. She's always felt like more of a prop than a character. Part of it is that Clarke isn't a particularly good actress, and part of it is that she just hasn't ever been written in a believable fashion. She's spent most of the show being unstoppable Jesus until she went full genocidal dictator this week. This whole thing simply wasn't done well.

I'm still enjoying the show overall, but I'll be shocked if the Dany storyline is remembered fondly at all over time. Still, we don't fully know yet how it ends, so maybe there's hope?

@cmblasko: Thanks a bunch, now I'm worried some sort of star child is gonna show up next week...

I liked the episode well enough, I could always use less Euron. A lot of the "villains" in the show I've enjoyed watching die, Euron I'd rather just wasn't there at all. The Dany turn could've been done better but it didn't bother me too much & I thought the Jaime/Cersei ending was great tbh.

I found it difficult to give a shit about the citizens of kings landing, would have been more effective if they had shown more of people living there through the season. A couple of scenes of Bronn/Qyburn doing their grocery shopping or something around the city and meeting some of the citizens, only for us to then see them getting slaughtered in E5 would have worked wonders for me.

I think I'd enjoy this season (and the last) a lot more if it had more room for these sort of slice of life scenes and world building instead of just haphazardly jumping from one plot point to the next (often by the medium of pure nonsense).

What a great episode. Testament to the storytelling that you can really understand how every character felt here. Dany, Cersei, Tyrion, Jaime, Grey Worm, Jon.

Dany's obviously the biggest one here. It's great how there's this palpable feeling of fear Tyrion has here, but a lot of people (like Jon) are still very much in the "oh no, she'll do the right thing" camp, when for the former the writing's practically on the wall.

She came to Westeros and lost practically everything. The love of those whom she would "liberate," much of her army, two of her children, her inner circle, her claim to the Iron Throne, and finally here her resistance to doing the wrong and cruel thing. The toll of trying to reason with Cersei since arriving, only to now destroy the Iron Fleet and Cersei's scorpions and be met with a quick surrender? Too heavy a toll for so easy a victory, and she gives in.

Remember when Tyrion was on trial and wished for the death of the city? These people are just that: people. Definitely understand how someone who's endured so much loss from trying to do the right thing (i.e. not go in and burn the Red Keep, which in retrospect would've been far better than what ended up happening, so if people still care of that witch's prophecy regarding Cersei's death, then blame Tyrion I guess? No hands around necks, but that's a prophecy for ya), would be perched on that wall on her fucking dragon and be like "fuuuuuuuuuuck this, everybody dies."

Arya leaving Sandor was fantastic. Just another great human moment where it's like "look, I get it, you've got this personal vendetta shit you've been about, but you will fucking die here just to kill a woman who is 1000% not leaving this keep alive." Since season 1 it's been survival for Arya, saying no to the god of death, all that; why would she throw her life away just to cross someone off her list. And good lord it was terrifying seeing her escape from the city.

What absolute madness. Throughout the entire ordeal it really felt like watching a moment in history similar to the sacking of King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion, where you know these people (those who survive anyways) will have their lives shaken like Ned, Oberyn, Jaime, and so many of the older characters had. Besides of course the immediate consequence of now having to confront the fact that Dany made real every fear of Targaryen vengeance in Westeros.

But man, Jon trying to stop his men while fight Lannister's trying to defend themselves from slaughter, before calling a retreat because Dany's clearly just destroying the whole wretched capital that they happen to be fighting for her to take.

The only thing that felt very spectacle-y was Jaime fighting Euron. Like, what? Why? He just happened to be there? Come oooon. But whatever, it's a TV show, they wanted a fight for Jaime, fine. It's not like it wasn't pretty intense seeing Jaime get stabbed up, knowing that "oh he's totally dead, even if he manages to get Cersei out."

And yeah, they even had me feeling bad for Cersei, just how immediately stomped they got and that the moment Dany took flight after the bell's rang, her death was pretty much certain. Deserved maybe, but still sad.

Last episode has some stuff that was kind bleh. Mostly just that dragon getting iced out of the blue, that felt very cheap in a "rocks fall" kind of way. "And then an arrow comes out of no where and kills her other dragon." But I get why she wouldn't have been able to deal with the Iron Fleet there and handled them squarely here. Besides being distraught from just seeing her kid violently killed, they were there ready for her and she was not ready for them. Simple as that. This time, she came in high with the Sun at her back, and once in the fray could outmanoeuvre their scorpions to make short work of the Iron Fleet and the city.

It's basically the first time we've actually seen a dragon unleashed, since every other time it's either Dany holding back (either because she needs the ships, is only there to destroy the caravan of supplies) or the dragons being used for a very particular purpose (destroying the Wall, escaping the fighting pits, rescuing the party north of the Wall, etc.). Kinda makes it hit home a bit more how, well, merciful (I guess?), it was for Dany to not just immediately take the Red Keep when she had THREE of those fuckers. Which in turn helps understand why she might be so unbelievably pissed here and just say "EVERYTHING BURNS" instead of maintaining this saintly level-headedness in the face of everything. That woulda been some bullshit right there.

And goddamn Cleganebowl was like some Dark Souls shit. Only thing I didn't much care for was the music when they fell into the fire. Got a liiiiiittle too sappy for me in a "oh, look at this sad moment, don't these sad violins (or whatever) correspond with this sad moment? are you feeling sad yet?" which was a bit lame.

I like that we finally got to see that shot of the dragon flying over King's Landing from Bran's vision, and I'm sure we'll see the destroyed throne room at some point like from Dany's visit to the House of the Undying.

But yeah, loved it. Made me appreciate The Long Night more too. At the time it felt kinda anticlimactic (though to be fair I was one of those people who always wanted the White Walkers to just wreck the planet and have things end that way, so life actually winning was more just against that personal hope of mine), but I appreciate it as this very heroic moment for a lot of characters (watching it again, good lord Jorah's a fucking champ; him and Berric, good grief), that precedes a return to the horrifying duldrums of humanity.

I also like how Arya, the person who killed the Night King and saved the realm (with help I guess in a very Endgame sort of way what with the Three-Eyed Raven's planning), was scrambling to survive the city getting destroyed like some disaster scene, almost getting trampled to death at one point. Like how Jon almost suffocated during the Battle of the Bastards. For as fantastic as your heroes are and the feats they perform, they're still people who can get fucking crushed.

Alternatively, they're still people who can do the wrong thing.

Yeah, great episode. Great season. I expect it'll be better to watch as the first half altogether and the second half altogether. We'll see. Next week it's alllllll over though. :'(

@notnert427: Some fair points to be made for sure. Obviously Dany did have some of the savior tropes built in, however I think if your only compiling all the times or scenes where she's portrayed as a badass/hero you'll probably even inside of those scenes notice how she was already being built as a tyrant not a savior. Again it was mostly always very subtle, even down to perspective and camera choices, we were often always given viewpoints of those she was doing harm to see them scream in fear as she did things. Yes some of that is her humbling people, but they always made sure to push it a scene further, to show that even in the lands of the slaves she set free, even as she showed other sides to her reign and grew as a character it was built upon fear.

But even Dany herself has always made selfish and inward choices. When she was questioning her morals, was she comparing them to the morals of the world around her? No, she just hated cruelty and slavery and rape so she opposed those choices. She still had the same traits all bad rulers have, the "my way or the highway" attitude towards anyone who upsets her or disobeys here was longstanding. How many times did she almost kill any number of her subjects? All the drama in the foreign lands was her being a selfish petulant child, showing her the potential consequences to her outbursts. For some reason because she had dragons and good values some took Dany's arc to mean "savior." I think some of that is the hope that she will be a savior and overcome the "Mad Queen" thing as well.

It also honestly could just be me. Like none of this stuff matters to me anymore in the way it used to. I see the reaction some people, notably fans of Dany or Jamie for example criticizing them throwing away character growth or throwing away seasons of built investment and for me, that happened to me on this show once. With Ned in Season 1. I was angry I was livid, I couldn't understand how you'd just throw away all that plot line of him discovering about the incest lineage (all wasted by the way, that sub plot has become irrelevant over the course of the show). Then after settling I realized that this character drama was probably just going to do that. So even other deaths or moments I couldn't see coming, it became clear that most of the characters that the audience is "meant" to spend any investment in are either going to die from their own hubris, and/or have something done to them that is a complete 180 to what we think and will piss off people investing in said character. As such investing in the show as a whole as opposed to character arcs became my approach so most of this stuff doesn't have the impact I'm imagining it does have on people who have invested more in those characters.

@devise22: I totally agree. The show presented her as a savior, but had her doing terrible things. Yeah, it’s nothing others didn’t do, executions and the like, but execution by burning, being eaten alive, crucifixion, not exactly traditionally “good” or “honorable” deaths.

I do think most of the fan reaction to her that I saw was that she was a hero and a savior. She did bad things to bad people. She united and freed good people.

Shame on the audience, maybe? A compelling case of taking our tolerance for a Tony Soprano/Walter White style anti-hero and shoving it down our throats? Maybe that, too.

Regardless, they hit the ending breaking two ankles and falling on their heads...it’s such a damned bummer and totally out of left for this series to get so average so fast.

@notnert427:

Whitewalker story: Botched

Danny’s Turn: Botched

Brienne’s story: Botched

Cersei’s story: Pretty well done

Season 8 Tyrion: Suddenly a rube

These episodes have been well shot (Starbucks aside), well acted, well directed, etc. The writing is some fucking fan fiction, though.

@nutter: Honestly it's why I think Bran just coming out at the end as the world is on fire and all the characters are dead and just smiling is the most fitting end to this show. Because at this point it has become a caricature of itself, becoming so evidently obvious about what Thrones is that it isn't afraid of the missteps. It at times does both a service and disservice to the show.

But at least if Bran did that we'd get some semblance of a point at the end. That any of us are monsters for investing in this. As such investing in the characters it presents to you are like traps, just waiting to be sprung to make you feel awful for thinking X character was redeemable, or more appropriately, not inherently awfully flawed. Like seeing "betting pools" for who should sit on the Iron Throne is exactly the type of anti-commentary Thrones should be stating right? Like, no fuck that the Throne is trash if you were really rooting for a "good" character they'd burn the Throne to the ground and never rule anything.

@cmblasko: I was okay with Mass Effect 3, but I was going pretty deep into renegade territory at by the end of the story anyhow.

@devise22: Not caring as much about the fine points of story and character isn’t on you.

The writing quality is such, lately, that why should you care, except because you’re already 70 hours into this investment with only 1-2 more to go?

I used to LOVE my Sunday nights watching this show with my wife. Now, we’re just sort of seeing out a commitment. I still enjoy it, but I’m disappointed because it has been so much better in the past. Yeah, season 7 had problems, but season 8 feels like I missed a writers’ strike.

@devise22: The show is no longer smart enough for some 4th wall breaking meta commentary to work, but I hear ya.

It doesn’t come across like it (I’m obnoxiously active in this thread lately), but I’m tired of Game of Thrones. Season 8 was too much done too poorly. But I still love the series as a whole. I’ll go back and rewatch at some point. This has been a sharp enough drop that any interest I may have had in a spin-off is currently dead.

It’s been a long relationship with this show. It was mostly awesome. Even if things went bad, I’d still like to see it off and watch the end play out, even if it’s with the critical smirk and raised eyebrow I give it, these days...

I don't know; the show tried to beat the audience over the head with the savior angle on multiple occasions. Didn't the Mereen citizens literally hoist her up as a crowd and beg to simply touch her as if she were some sort of deity? The Dothraki and Unsullied basically did the same and pledged to follow her to the death. Then there was Missandei, Varys, Tyrion, Jon and a host of others openly stating how great she was constantly. I'm not giving the show much credit for a few throwaway scenes of semi-cruel deaths of terrible enemies, either; the overwhelming portrayal of Dany by the show was positive until it conveniently wasn't.

Anti-heroes are fine. Dany, however, was a fake hero. It wasn't particularly sold well, either, and the show seemed to know it. So season after season the show went out of its way to outright show/tell the viewer how amazing Dany is, and eventually it just became somewhat accepted as something we were supposed to buy into even if we really didn't. So when they pulled the rug out in equally ridiculous fashion of having her go from zero to genocide for no reason, it just didn't work. It felt like the show expected this "gotcha" moment based on the Dany savior narrative which appeared to be contrived bullshit actually turning out to be contrived bullshit.

I've said enough on this, though, and I do still like the show. I'm not keen on picking it apart too much, but they fucked this storyline up, IMO.

@notnert427: Turn. Don’t turn. It doesn’t matter. Just earn it through writing.

They failed to earn it, so they drew a lot of ire.

@acharlie1377: Dany was never an angel or paragon, but she was never shown to be evil or this bad. If it really were developed seasons ago then this many fans of the show, youtubers, and myself would've seen it... most viewers are mad at the show for a reason, we didn't randomly decide to get annoyed. I never liked Dany that much since she was so entitled and never did anything in a battle herself until Drogon got big.

If Dany was so evil this whole time why would she chain her dragons when one of them killed one kid? Why free slaves and the unsullied when she could've used them and gotten to Westeros faster and easier? Why fight to keep the fighting pit closed? Dany was a good person, flawed, but good given the show's universe. Arya and Dany are about equally murderous, neither one would destroy a populated city. The show could've made Dany bad, but it should've been there for seasons. Most fans feel it abruptly happened last episode. The show didn't earn it nor work for it.

This season has ruined Dany, Jamie, Bran, and the white walkers. Jon and Cersei have been pretty lame since they've hardly been allowed to speak. Tyrion is still a dumbass. I've never seen a show decline so badly this quickly.

I'd disagree that Robb betrayed the north. The Freys and Boltons would've betrayed him sooner or later, so it didn't really matter to me. Jamie didn't rape Cersei, it was just a rough and awkward sex scene. I believe the showrunners came out at the time and said that wasn't their intent. Stannis was just Mel's puppet on the show for the most part.

according to the writers from this week's Inside the Episode, Dany in fact decided to "make things personal" when she "sees the red keep".

so there you have it! they also said if she hadn't been betrayed by Jon and seen missandei die "we wouldn't have seen this side" of her.

not sure what this does to the interesting discussion of whether she was always a monster or not.

@gerrid: Seems like if that were the case she would have only taken out the red keep, not the entire city. She totally had a reason to want to kill Cersei and even see the keep destroyed, but her killing so many innocents for no reason was a bit extreme.

From checking how the more book-oriented folk feel, I think I have drilled down on my biggest complaints with the episode to two main failings:

Arya should not have been the POV. It should have been Davos. He was on site for some reason and, regardless of if he is alive in the books, he has a connection to the city. I saw a fan suggest that he could have had a flashback scene or something to tie his tolerance of the common people, his love of little Shireen, and royalty burning folk to death together to actually give the deaths meaning. Instead we got some kid who always hated King's Landing running around like Tom Cruise. I suspect this is because of the role Arya plays in The Ending and her making sense as a POV, but it was a wasted opportunity for some gravitas.

The first half of the episode did not matter. We had two (three?) major plot lines ending that could have explained the bells. Expedite Jaime's jog or even have Arya and The Hound be what sets Cersei off and makes her realize she is fucked. Instead, we had those exact same plot points but also had the bells ring at random. Nothing anyone did matter and all of the "I am risking my life to try to avert atrocity" might as well have not happened.

---

The bad acting is expected by this point. The rushed plot points too. But this is "Topher Grace is bored" levels of edits that would drastically improve the episode.

People not realizing that Dany was a terrible ruler from the beginning that was just lucky enough to have dragons and good friends/advisors. Guess what, most of those friends/advisors are dead and so are her dragons. Her mental health in combination with her own delusional ambition led to end of King's Landing.

Having thought more about it, my opinion hasn't changed. That was just a horrible episode. I was able to overlook the so-so writing of late because I just love these characters doing what they do. But this episode actually betrayed them. Tyrion, who used to be my favorite character, is a dumbass now. He was the brain of the show but now he's operating on hope for some reason? What makes you think Dany is a good ruler still? Have you seen her lately? As for Dany herself, you can say "this was foreshadowed" all you want, and you'd be right. That doesn't mean there was logical progression here. You HAVE to see how rushed it is. She fucking torches innocents for like 45 minutes. If this was a smart show, Jon or Tyrion would have revealed some secret plan to betray and kill her this episode. It would have been a shock to the audience and it would make sense. But no she just flies around and gratuitously murders hundreds of people for half the episode because we need big epic action. That's not even my biggest complaint though. Jaime has no arc now. It's gone. There is no point to everything he's gone through throughout this entire show. Last episode when he left Breanne, I thought he was going on a mission to kill Cersei once and for all to get rid of that toxicity in his life. HE JUST FUCKING STAYS WITH HER??? HE LITERALLY REVERTS BACK TO SEASON 1 JAIME. Cersei did nothing to earn an "i love you" death and Jaime did nothing to earn that toxic woman back in his life. Yet here it is because...???? Awful, awful handling of characters.

@gerrid said:

I don't even watch the show anymore and I can feel the shoulder shrug that went along with that response.

Good god, going back and watching the Long Night after seeing how things go at King's Landing makes everything in that episode so much more exceptional. Such an incredible show.

@gerrid: Seems like their reasoning is as flawed as their story telling...figures!

@deathstriker:Just because you and some youtubers didn't see it doesn't mean nobody saw it; there are numerous people on this forum who agree that Dany's ruthlessness had been a part of the show since the beginning. I understand why her turn would seem sudden if your view of her is as a heroine, and I don't think you're getting upset for a random reason; that said, you can't say a joke is unfunny just because you didn't get it, and you can't say the show made this stuff up on the spot just because you didn't see it coming.

If Dany was so evil this whole time why would she chain her dragons when one of them killed one kid? Why free slaves and the unsullied when she could've used them and gotten to Westeros faster and easier? Why fight to keep the fighting pit closed? Dany was a good person, flawed, but good given the show's universe. Arya and Dany are about equally murderous, neither one would destroy a populated city. The show could've made Dany bad, but it should've been there for seasons. Most fans feel it abruptly happened last episode. The show didn't earn it nor work for it.

One could argue that the reason her dragons killed children for no reason is that they inherited her ruthlessness; further, I never said she didn't have a heart, only that she has a history of being brutal towards anyone who opposes her. Regarding the other points, she does those things because they're the ideals she has; she doesn't believe in slavery, she doesn't believe in the fighting pits. But even there, you can see she doesn't necessarily have the people's best interests at heart; even after being freed, some former slaves wanted to continue to fight, because it was all they knew how to do, and they would be jobless otherwise. Dany refused to accept this, and the only reason she reopened the fighting pits was because her lover told her she should.

And besides, my whole point is that her "goodness" is due to the fact that up to this point, we've only seen her fighting in situations that put her in a good vs. evil scenario; when she crucifies slave owners and feeds nobles to dragons, it's seen as a heroic act. But she isn't doing it because it's what's best for the people, she's doing it because it's what she wants. She didn't have to feed a random nobleman to her dragons while the others watched, but she did it anyways because she's a remorseless person. It's like how Alistair Thorne kind of redeems himself in the siege against the Wall; his dickishness and bigotry don't matter in that moment, because it aligns with the right thing to do, which is defend the Wall. Similarly, you appreciate Littlefinger when the army of the Vale saved Jon Snow in Bastardbowl, because his self-serving nature finally aligned with the "good guys" for once, but you don't think that makes him a good person. It's the same way with Dany; we're led to believe that she's good because she's on the right side of these things, and it makes us ignore the terrible things she does along the way.

I also don't accept that Arya and Dany are even remotely the same level of murderous. At her absolute cruelest, Arya poisoned an entire room of Frey soldiers, because they were the ones who killed her family. Meanwhile, Dany has committed more heinous acts in every single season, starting with the literal crucifixion of every single slaver in Mereen (I think it was Mereen?) Arya has also never killed just for the sake of it, while Dany fed a nobleman to a dragon, in front of his fellow nobles, when all she needed to do was scare them.

I'd disagree that Robb betrayed the north. The Freys and Boltons would've betrayed him sooner or later, so it didn't really matter to me. Jamie didn't rape Cersei, it was just a rough and awkward sex scene. I believe the showrunners came out at the time and said that wasn't their intent. Stannis was just Mel's puppet on the show for the most part.

Regardless of what you call it, I don't think you can call Robb's decision in character; he made a promise to another prominent lord, and then reneged on the promise because he found an attractive woman. The fact that you don't care about that out-of-character decision, but do care about this out-of-character decision, is part of a thing that really bothers me about reactions to this season. Earlier seasons are treated as infallible television, where all mistakes made are minor and can be looked past, whereas the more recent seasons are called straight garbage because the writers are somehow both (a) being too predictable and (b) pulling random bullshit just to surprise the audience, which are two contradictory problems. You might not be doing this, and if you're not I apologize; I just get annoyed that this season is being compared to some imagined, flawless show that people describe the first few seasons as.

I'll say this..

From a purely stylistic perspective this was an amazing episode. Great action sequences, great use of balanced CGI, overall beautiful angles and some really stunning visuals that made me wish there was a screenshot button on my TV (I actually think there might be..). It is by far my favorite episode of the entire show in terms of showmanship.

From the narrative side..ehh.. I dunno I think I checked out a long time ago so I wasn't even that upset anymore. I'm just here for the fireworks at this point. I guess I just kind of rolled my eyes the most at her destroying the iron fleet and dodging all those catapults, especially since they were really working overtime at Kings Landing cause they had like dozens upon dozens of the things all over the place.

I do have to say, this is probably some of the best acting Emilia Clarke has ever done on the show. She is really able to sell that manic "whispers in my head" type of look that went well with her..rather abrupt.. transformation. Makes me wish they started dipping into this dark side like an entire season ago instead of keeping up the plucky, go getter attitude which seemed so awfully fake.

@acharlie1377: There's really nothing to get or understand. The writers rushed and butchered the plotline like they've done with most things lately. Dany had a vengeful and ruthless side, but she wasn't a psycho or monster like some of you people are claiming. Killing your enemies is pretty normal, that's something everyone (Robert, Ned, Tywin, and others) would do. Not even Cersei would do what Dany just did. It's not just "me and some youtubers" who are annoyed. The overwhelming response to this season and especially this last episode seems to be negative.

The earlier seasons aren't perfect. I just said Stannis was Mel's puppet, which is a negative to me. Jon and Bran's story arcs are kinda boring in the beginning. I think the Freys and Boltons would've betrayed the Starks for power and Lannister gold even if Robb had married her, so I don't think he betrayed the north or think he had it coming like some people do. I believe in the books Robb marries her because he took her virginity and maybe got her pregnant, that reasoning probably should've been brought into the show too.

The danger of this season is that it's ruining characters we've seen since the first episode, which hurts the show's legacy and if it's even worth rewatching. What's the point in seeing Bran's journey again when he wasn't helpful against the dead and just spends time zoning out in a wheelchair or see Jorah save and mentor Dany while I think "naw, let that crazy bitch die Jorah". They basically tried to Walter White her in 2 episodes. She was ruthless before that but not evil, no more than Robert, Tywin, Arya, or Hound.

I've said my peace on this episode for now. Anyone who disagrees we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Didn't Cersei straight up murder a significant chunk of King's Landing to get rid of her Jehova's Witness problem? Maybe book Cersei wouldn't do that (mostly because she is barely smart enough to tie her own shoes), but Show Cersei straight up did that and it wasn't that out of left field. With Dragonfire albeit, instead of Dragon Fire.

Multiple people, myself included, have pointed out plenty of book and show instances where she did some pretty heinous shit with lots of collateral damage. You still need that "she finally snapped" moment, but this is really more of a "it happened too fast" rather than "There is no way she would do that"

At the end of the day: You can say whatever you want to say. But generally when folk post on a message board it is because they want to have a discussion. So why not join the fun and discuss it?

@deathstriker: You keep saying "Not even X would do what Dany did" like Dany is supposed to be a hero or a good person. My point is that that's a faulty assumption. She only seems like a good person throughout the show if you assume beforehand that she's a good person; otherwise, she's done some of the most gruesome and terrible things in the entire show. Even before season 8, she had killed or been directly responsible for more deaths than any other person in the show, and the number of people she let live after they defied her is one--and that's Jorah Mormont, a close friend. In the vein of "even X wouldn't do Y," even Cersei was ready to allow Ned Stark to take the Black after he confessed to treason, even though he directly staged a coup against her son. Can you see Dany doing the same thing in that position? The last time someone tried to rebel against her, she fed them to a fucking dragon.

Every single negative response to the Dany part of this episode is predicated on the idea that Dany was supposed to be the hero, and the showrunners did her wrong. But why is she a hero? If Cersei crucified a bunch of slavers along the Kingsroad, would she be given the same courtesy? When she obliterated the High Sparrow and eliminated a dangerous sect of religious radicals, was she considered the people's champion? Hell no! She was branded a goddamn lunatic, because that's what she is. Dany's actions throughout seasons 2-7 are marked by all of her enemies dying, and her demanding that people submit to her. She might have freed all the slaves, but she never said people were free to challenge her rule; like all tyrants, she considers her power to be absolute, and not subject to question. Even in earlier seasons, her advisors say that she picks them to "temper her worst impulses." Her nature is there throughout the entire show, mentioned even by her closest friends as something she can manage with the advice of smart people; in seasons 7 and 8, she loses her faith in them, and her nature finally runs unchecked.

If you look at Dany as a villain, starting from square one, her story doesn't make any less sense. It just changes from a hero's journey to the rise of a charismatic, ruthless, and powerful leader, hellbent on making themselves the undisputed ruler of the entire world. Saying she couldn't be a villain because she did something that helped out people is like saying Stalin couldn't be a villain because he improved Russia's economy. The good should not outweigh or overshadow the bad.

@acharlie1377: Some pretty excellent points there. It's also not entirely nuanced or new villain building they were doing with her. I've seen tons of comparisons of Dany as the female Anakin. Pushed by good reasons but constantly with too much power, and is far too emotional/young to deal with it properly. It's like the scenes where her advisors talked her out of more genocide in previous seasons didn't happen to some people watching I guess? Or that maybe because she ultimately didn't commit those actions in some cases that it redeemed her? But like, her first instinct when she didn't get what she wanted the moment she rose to prominence in the middle part of the shows run, has been the bratty teenager. Which is a horrendous approach to ruling. With the advisers and the patience of the people, people who had mostly been ruled by slavers and were ready for change. Even they feared Dany at first, and grew to respect/admire love here.

I think it's pretty hard to say the show didn't put any work into Dany being a villain. I think she was ready and prepared for the villain role the moment she came over in Season 7 and you could pretty much see the slow push to that as the various relationships and causes were coming into play. That said...it was still rushed in Season 8. Instead of one off lines about her internal struggles with losing the dragons, with Jon rejecting her etc...it would of been nice to get more brooding time to see her unravel. I feel like it would of done a lot for the audience expectation coming into the episode, although again...how some people couldn't not only see it coming but would wholesale call it unearned is just wild. Rushed and unearned are two entirely different things. All the shows building for seasons doesn't like break the good moments in Season 8 or the building of it before hand.

@gundato: At a certain point this just becomes talking in circles. It's almost like people arguing about politics or religion, no one changes their mind and it goes nowhere. I never said they weren't allowed to turn Dany, I said it was rushed and unearned. With the proper groundwork it would've been a good story arc, but that's not what happened. I'm pretty sure the writers thought of this "cool way to subvert things" recently given the writing and D&D said last season something along the lines of "she's not her father, she's not mad" in the after episode wrap up, which is pretty funny in retrospect.

@deathstriker: Like a lot of things in life, you get out what you put in

You are saying things like "there is no way X would do Y" or "this was unearned" or even accusations that this came out of left field because the showrunners are bad. And when people respond to you, you ignore them and continue restating your points.

This is not politics or religion. This is literary analysis (or whatever the show version of that is) and a discussion of the characters and plot points based on source material. If you don't want to engage in that discussion then fine, I will assume you thought you were just tweeting into the aether.

That being said, I do encourage you to join in because these kinds of discussions are fun and can reveal insights you weren't aware of.

For example: I've been checking other boards and didn't realize that Varys's bird was straight up trying to kill Dany with poison. And I saw an argument that this may even be lead poisoning or some other tactic to induce dementia/madness. Similarly, I saw a great comparison of GoT to Warhammer and the Unsullied to Da Orkz that I keep giggling at.

@devise22: Yeah, the rushed feeling is inescapable. It's weird, though, I found a lot of parts in the first 6 or so seasons (the High Sparrow, the Dorne stuff, most Daenerys parts) tended to drag, and some plot points felt like they were needlessly expanded to fill the 10-episode runtime. It must be hard to find a good balance, especially as more and more plot points start spinning up and coalescing.

@gundato: I haven't intentionally ignored anyone. I am using this on mobile right now, which isn't a great experience so replies to me might've been missed. Just about every post in here since the last episode boils down to either "the show didn't properly build up to Dany doing something so evil" or "the show did buildup to her being evil and you guys missed it", which side I'm on is clear. Posting on a forum doesn't mean someone wants to have an endless conversation about that topic. I clearly stated why I didn't like the episode or this season. If someone disagrees then that's fine.

@devise22: I’d say the sudden turn itself was unearned and rushed, as were many season 8 developments.

The legwork was clearly put in in prior seasons to say “she’s capable of great cruelty,” but they rushed to get there this season, all while dedicating considerable time to hour long action sequences that could have drove the same point home in 20 minutes.

@nutter: But it wasn't sudden from a time perspective right? It was sudden from our perspective because the show is rushed. Like time travel doesn't exist, the show has just been jumping through time in the later seasons to speed things up/rush through stuff. There was a line where they mentioned in this last episode that Dany wasn't sleeping or eating much. When she executed Varys she looked haggard.

Again these aren't all things alone that simply justify it, but they quickly gloss over her struggles post The Great War, losing another Dragon and losing her aid/friend. Just like they gloss over her frustration with Jon being so heralded and him rejecting her sexual advances. We don't ever get to see how this stuff really affects her beyond an odd scene. For me that is, what was rushed. The actual plot and narrative elements were in place to justify her turn. She was in an exceptionally emotional state, and had we the audience had time even 10-15 minutes of this episode to be guided through her descent before the bells scene...the look on her face in that scene probably could of landed far more.

Instead we get the look attached to a few quick scenes, some glances, and the simple knowledge that we know she is struggling. We are to assume the worst and take the leap with the writers for the Bell moment and that is where I think it's unearned. But again, with travel time that we aren't seeing and tons of days going by since these wars/things were put in place we are basically left to assume what some of these characters are dealing with based solely on the interactions we can see. That just comes down to rushing imo. It was all over the season too, not just the Dany stuff. Countless scenes would end just as your about to hear a character react to something or the conversation was picking up because the plot called for us to move and see something else.

@devise22: From the viewer experience, they carefully laid this out for years, and then quickly and awkwardly tripped over themselves this season, rushing the final steps of this evolution of her character.

I thought it was fine, good, and a clear possibility that I’d be fine with until the awkward fumbling this season.

@acharlie1377:

Claiming that people who take issue with how Dany's turn was handled "didn't get it" or "didn't see it coming" is a fairly shitty, insulting presumption. It reads as a haughty, dismissive claim to understand the show on some higher level than anyone who disagrees can. Frankly, I'm impressed that the response to it was as tactful as it was. Had it been directed at me, I'm not sure mine would have been as measured. Moving on.

Dany, up until this last episode, is portrayed as ruthless for about 1% of her screentime and as a savior for the other 99%. Moreover, even her "ruthless" bits were reserved for awful people who arguably "deserved it", especially contextually within the generally ruthless GoT universe. In other words, the entirety of her actions in the show leading up to this point were painted either as heroic or at worst justifiable. Yes, she has mostly been laser-focused on her self-serving quest for the throne, but the fact is that the show wrote pretty much everything around that motivation in ways that allowed her to be the "good guy" every time.

Then this latest episode she needlessly roasts an entire city of innocents instead of going after Cersei, the only person standing between her and the throne, and this is supposedly in character? No. Not even close. The show went out of its way to try and make Dany look good for seven-plus seasons, then had her pull a complete 180. It wasn't some giant shocker that fooled every dullard except you, as this shit has been intimated at as a possibility since we first heard about the Mad King early on. This was a character tossing their singular motivation aside to behave in an entirely different manner than they have the entire show, which isn't easy to just accept.

I have a hard time high-fiving this as some brilliant long con from the show where she was really pure evil all along and all the things just happened to line up for her to where she got to always end up on the right side of morality. Yet the audience apparently should have completely ignored the writers continuing to frame Dany in a positive light time after time? Welp, there goes half of the fucking show.

This is the problem. Even if this were all subversion for subversion's sake (which would be extremely weak), what it boils down to is that they spent the better part of seven seasons trying to convince us of something they hastily undid in the penultimate episode, which renders everything prior in this storyline as a pointless ruse and thus taints a huge portion of the show itself. Or perhaps worse, maybe they didn't plan any of this out and just made a late decision to have her conveniently turn heel just to set up other shit for the last episode.

People have a right to be annoyed. At a certain point over seven-plus seasons, Dany the character became who they wrote her to be. Yes, there was always the potential for her to make this turn, and yes, there are scattered allusions to this possibility sprinkled in here and there, but they pale in comparison to the consistently heroic light the show painted her in. It is completely fair to hold the writers to their own writing and observe when a character behaves nonsensically in regards to their goals and who they've been established to be, especially when it's rushed and forced near the end of the show. Maybe they somehow resolve this in the finale. Here's hoping.

So sad what this show has turned into. It feels like someone put the worlds most intricate Lego set together. It took them years to do, and it was incredible. And then one day they decided they were bored so they started ignoring the instructions and just did whatever they wanted. And some of the sections they just decided to punt, and send the pieces flying everywhere.

I really worry what these guy's Star Wars trilogy is going to be. And they certainly don't have the chops to pull off a show where the Confederacy wins the Civil War.

@notnert427: I wouldn’t say it was a brilliant long con. I think this is better than The Night King episode a couple of weeks back, but still rushed and lacking the development required to make most characters actions seem believable.

I also think they’ve been flirting with Danny being capable of great cruelty for several seasons and REALLY hammering it home this season. Her turn felt kinda inevitable most of the season, but what they did last night was unearned shock value, and poorly executed from a story perspective, to boot.

@notnert427:Sorry if I offended; I don't want to make it sound like I'm somehow smarter than anyone because I think a different thing about a tv show than them. But your argument is "this was pulled out of thin air," and my argument is "no it wasn't"; the only way my argument is correct is if there's something to the show that you missed. It isn't a claim of superiority, it's a literally unavoidable consequence of my argument. In the same way you're offended because I'm dismissing your reading of the show, I could get offended because you are dismissing my reading of the show. That doesn't seem productive or fun, though; I don't think this is a test of who's smarter, I think it's a debate about the themes and storytelling of the show. So, as a blanket statement, I don't mean any of what I have said or what I might say in the future as offensive or insulting, and I apologize if I do offend or insult.

My main opposition to your argument is that I don't think the show portrays Daenerys as heroic. It definitely shows other people treating her as heroic, and it spends a large amount of time on her character development. But a major strength of this show is that it largely avoids painting characters with a single brush of "hero" or "villain," or "good" or "evil." Most main characters are portrayed as flawed, and occasionally deeply cruel people, with their own ideals, goals, and morals. It's what made longer arcs like the war for the throne so interesting and different; there were multiple sides all fighting against each other, but none of them were made to feel more or less worthy than the others. Even characters like Cersei, Jaime, and Theon are given enough humanity to make people sympathize with them.

Daenerys is no different. I don't think she has ever been portrayed as pure evil, even in the latest episode; you can see the sadness and rage in her eyes as she's burning down buildings, and know that she still cares about people like Missandei and Jon. But I don't think the show ever wrote her as purely good, either; you even admitted that "she has been mostly laser-focused on her self-serving quest for the throne." And, I think it's safe to say the methods she uses to get there are extremely ruthless. So, our main disagreement is whether the show/books intentionally portrayed her journey for the first 6 seasons as heroic. You obviously think they did; I, on the other hand, think they didn't have a choice.

Let's say the show/books didn't put her in these heroic situations, and that the leaders and obstacles she faces aren't terrible people. How would she get to where she is now? She was only allowed into Qarth because Xaro Xhoan Daxos vouched for her, and he ended up being a terrible person. Even if we assume he vouches for her, but isn't doing it for ulterior reasons, her only way to get money for ships and an army would be to marry Xaro Xhoan Daxos; we already know she wouldn't do that, though, because she turns him down. So, assuming she even is allowed into Qarth and doesn't die (not a given at all), she's left with no money and no allies. Going further into the future, any city leader with two brain cells isn't about to let a Dothraki horde waltz through the gates, so she would never be allowed into a city peacefully, and she wouldn't be able to rely on slaves or oppressed peoples to rise up, because by assumption she is up against generally decent people. No one in Essos really knows who she is, it's unlikely she would be able to win with just a few young dragons and a small amount of Dothraki, and so she would inevitably die without ever making it back to Westeros--unless she went full villain.

This would obviously change the entire series drastically, but it's definitely possible; make Daenarys a force of evil, inexorably headed towards the seven kingdoms. But, this tyrant schtick only works with one or more fully grown dragons; otherwise, she's just a crazy person who will die talking about how fearsome she will be. With just her baby dragons, she wouldn't be able to conquer any cities, and so once again she dies without making it back to Westeros.

I don't think the show/books chose to portray her in a heroic light; I think that doing so was the only way to justify her making it from her position at the end of season 1 to her position now. Remember, even with all of these heroic situations, Daenerys only made it to Westeros with a heaping helping of plot armor; Xaro Xhoan Daxos lets her into Qarth, Daario Naharis kills his allies and pledges his life to her because she's hot, etc. Without those heroic situations, the number of lucky breaks and narrative nonsense required to keep her alive for this long would be insane. People had to flock to her in order for her to survive in the story, and that could only be accomplished by her saving these people in some way.

In summary, I don't think this was a "long con" by the show/books, and I don't think they portrayed her as a hero or as a villain. Her becoming a benevolent leader was also a plausible ending, since, as Varys and Tyrion have mentioned, she surrounded herself with advisors who would temper her worst impulses. But, regardless of how her story ended, I think her story had to begin with the exact same path--people rising up to follow her.

I never saw Daenerys in a heroic light until maybe season 7, and even then she almost forced Jon Snow to bend the knee before she helped him save the world. To me, she was always a cruel, ruthless, and short-sighted tyrant, who never considered that she should put the people ahead of her quest for the Iron Throne. To you (and a lot of others), she was clearly a heroic figure, and she didn't deserve the heel-turn in the latest episode. You obviously have a right to be annoyed, and I understand your viewpoint; I just don't think the show ever decided she was a hero.

@barrock said:

I've made a lot of points about how some of the show's most ridiculous moments come from the early seasons, and how the books are not nearly the paragons of perfection that people make them out to be, so I'll just say this:

The creators of Game of Thrones are making a show about the Confederacy winning the Civil War? When did I miss this? Is this on HBO? I've literally never heard of this, and it sounds interesting--is this coming soon, or is it just in the idea phase?

@acharlie1377: I'm just a big fan of the books. And I think they are working on it right now, or at least they were. It's through HBO, and when it was announced there was a ton of controversy.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7163588/

@barrock: Yeah, that does seem... dicey. I'm obviously a big fan of the show, but considering how well the showrunners have done with issues of race and gender on the show (which is not well at all), I'm not super optimistic they could do that high concept justice.

I'm surprised that people are surprised about Dany's turn this week. If Missandei's last word isn't a huge enough flag, I don't know what is. Considering how every major story beat is essentially circular, there is zero chance Dany does not go down the same path as her dad. Given what we've seen this week, I'm pretty comfortable making some bold(?) predictions about new week:

Who gets the Iron Throne: Gendry. Yes, fucking Gendry. We've almost come full circle on this major plot point. We started with a Baratheon king, we will end with a Baratheon king. And there are no more legitimate successors left other than motherfucking Gendry. Why do you think all of the sudden he got so much screen time? Yeah.

What happens to Dany and Jon: Dany dies. Killed by someone closest to her. Kill by Jon. Another full circle. Dany and Jon are eachother's antithesis. Someone who desperately wants to rule but is inadequate versus someone who is more capable but actively avoids the throne despite being constantly thrust into positions of power. Jon returns to the North and finally gets out of this game of thrones he never wanted to be part of.

The last dragon: probably falls into some body of water like his other siblings. The dragons are born in fire, so the water symbolism is apt. If this whole thing is to wrap up neatly, dragons cannot exist because they are a huge influence on the power balance of the continent.

The North and Sansa: this is probably my most "out there" prediction - Sansa marries Gendry. Like, who else is left at this point? Also the best way to consolidate an alliance. Arya, some will say, but that's not happening because I suspect the Jaqen stuff is not completely done.

Tyrion, Grey Worm, and the lot: All going to die. Maybe except Davos. I suppose maybe Grey Worm survives, but unlikely. No fucking way Tyrion makes it out of this alive. There's still some stuff left on Essos so I'd wager we'll that next week.

When the season started, I would have never made these precitions, but it certainly seems to be where we're heading right now.

Final Episode Prediction:

Dany is about to kill Jon with her dragon. He tells her that he knows there’s still good in her. She has a change of heart, gets off the dragon, throws it down the Moon Door, where it doesn’t fly for some reason and dies.

Jon tries to take Dany from Eyrie, where they are for some reason, she says it’s too late for her and then dies.

Later, while partying with a happy pack of dire wolves, the ghosts of Ned, Dany, and Rhaegar happily wave goodbye to Jon, Sansa, and Arya.