Avengers Endgame Discussion (Full Spoilers)

Full spoilers, no tags.

I wanted to love it, but only "kinda liked it". I thought it took too long to get going, it hardly had any action, and the fights weren't that great. Cap with the hammer going ham and the heroes playing keep away with the glove were the only good bits of action. Character and story wise, they did a great job with Hawkeye (who I never cared about before), but on the flipside they did an awful job with one of my favorite characters Thor, who is just a joke in this movie. He was emo/depressed for too long and even after he snapped out of it he really didn't do anything that useful. The final battle was a little too LOTR for me, I loved the portal moment, but Avengers vs Thanos and his children would've been good enough IMO. It wasn't bad at all, I just like Infinity War, Civil War, and a couple other MCU movies way more.

Random thoughts

• The 5 year gap wasn't really explored and doesn't make sense: who ruled Wakanda that whole time? How/why are Peter's friend still in high school when it has been 5 years for them?
• Thor and Quill needed redemption. Thor got it a tiny, tiny bit - not Quill at all.
• Did Tony snap away Gamora? I don't remember seeing her after that point or when Thor was with them at the end.
• It makes no sense that Thor and Stark fought better against Thanos when he had the stones than Thanos without the stones. They spent the last movie getting Stormbreaker and it didn't do anything.
• Hulk didn't throw one punch, which was lame. It should've been Hulk taking down that ship and fighting Thanos rather than Captain Marvel.
• Cap got a good ending. Tony's fate was so obvious it felt inevitable, so it didn't affect me. I never felt a connection to Black Widow so I didn't care about that death either.
• Falcon being the new Cap sounds meh. I think Captain Marvel will (try and probably fail) to fill that role in the MCU. While Doctor Strange's personality is pretty close to Tony, but someone like Reed Richards can fill that genius scientist role.

Captain America's ending made no sense... how was the old version in their timeline? Did he travel back in time as an old man? What happened to the whole different realities they talked about?

I wasn't super upset about Black Widow either.

I loved the last battle scene, and I have to admit I also loved fat Thor...

Captain Marvel isn't that bad when she's not talking. I still really wish they would have casted Charlize Theron....

I figured Tony would die, but wow I got watery eyed during his funeral.

Overall I thought it was pretty good, but I did like Infinity War more.

@casepb: Cap traveled back to the 1970's reality that he and Tony stole the cube from. While there he decided to stay with Peggy for decades then bring the shield back to his timeline before he died, so the Cap mantle can keep going and his friends would know he finished the job of returning the hammer and stones.

Thor becoming a fat depressed shut-in doesn't fit his arc from Thor 3 at all. The Russo bros already screwed up the arc in the last movie, since Thor 3 is all about him not needing a weapon and just relying on his own power then in IW they quickly give him a new eye and his whole quest is about getting a new weapon and in this movie he has two weapons, and still doesn't use any of his own lightning powers, SMH. Not to mention, in Thor 3 he matures more and accepts being a king/leader, but this movie has him eating butter and playing video games for 5 years while ignoring his people. Some of the Thor stuff was funny, but it didn't fit the character or where his solo series was taking him.

If Fortnite exists in this universe, did the Thanos crossover happen?

I generally agree with the above (I specifically thought of LOTR at that part). I think in a few months people will start picking apart this movie. Not everything worked, but I enjoyed the fanservice and audience clap moments.

This movie made me appreciate Infinity War even more. It had to work with more characters, but everyone felt useful and more importantly acted like they should.

That said I'm all aboard for Asgardians of the Galaxy bring it on (provided Hemsworth loses a few pounds).

@deathstriker: That 2014 Gamorra fucked off after the battle I think. Quill was searching for her on his ship's terminal before Thor came aboard. She would have had no reason to stick around for Tony's funeral, since she didn't technically know any of these people. Also probably worth noting that Stark and Thor had just been blown the fuck up by the aerial bombardment before fighting 2014 Thanos. The 5 year gap and still in high school thing is totally weird though, yeah.

@casepb yeah Cap being there is weird, but i'm not so sure on how the alternate realities thing was supposed to play out. is it that if they didn't return the time stone, then reality would splinter? but since Cap goes back to the points in which they took the stones and returned them, it was as if they never were taken, so all the stuff that got fucked was unfucked and there was no splintering? so Cap being with Peggy was always the case in this timeline, since he was in the ice at that time, and when not in the ice and he visited her, Old Cap would've been, what, hiding? So there were two Caps at some point? But then that would mean he kissed his, what, his great niece (Agent 13)? Yikes.

Eh, it was a nice way to end the story if you don't think about it too hard. This being a literal fuckin Marvel superhero movie, it's probably the first time I'm like "ehhh, whatever with trying to make sense of this movie's time travel rules, look at Giant-Man punch the flying eel thingie."

Anyways, as for my own impression of the movie: not gonna lie, I was pretty iffy on, like, the first hour, but once the time heist was in full play, things got real great real fast. I think it was a lovely way to close out all these past movies, even before the fantastic finale.

And yeah, the final battle was fucking incredible. The Wakanda battle from Infinity War was kinda bleh besides the few character interactions, but holy shit dude this was the most comic-book-to-screen shit I ever did see in my life, and it was amazing.

So the only thing that makes sense for the classmates of Peter Parker is that they all were also vanished as well. Because if they weren't than yeah that would make no sense.

I enjoyed the movie overall. It had some really good moments, the action was solid, it didn't really drag much despite the long runtime, and it felt like a decent "ending" for this phase. If I'm being honest, though, I liked Infinity War better because it felt like the stakes were higher there.

Thanos' power was indeed all over the map in this one. Retired Thanos pretty much didn't even put of a fight and got beheaded easily and regular-ass Thanos (as mentioned above) seemed WAY too formidable. It was kinda the same problem with Vision in Infinity War, where the character's competence seems to depend entirely upon what best serves the narrative at the time.

Also, maybe this is my fault for not seeing the Captain Marvel movie and therefore having less attachment to the character, but her role in this movie is basically "ridiculously OP savior who shows up at key moments". It's the same reason Superman sucks ass as a character, because he pretty much can't lose. It was almost like even the movie knew it and had to repeatedly have her vanish to go save other unnamed planets across the universe so the fight would even be fair. Watching her space beam in and out at will to save the day felt pretty forced and bad.

I kinda enjoyed fat, semi-useless Thor for this same reason. Most of these characters have entered god mode from time to time, so taking the actual god down a few pegs was welcome, IMO (especially considering that real-life Chris Hemsworth is unfairly good-looking). However, it didn't really makes sense that his sick new hammer did basically nothing here, and the twin hammers thing was a bit much, especially when Captain America suddenly was able to use one. Super-Cap was annoying in the same vein as the Captain Marvel bullshit.

They never established Black Widow enough as an interesting character to make her death affecting. They sure tried to drag it out using Hawkeye's suicide battle to sell it, but it still fell flat for me. Also, looking back, that she was "leader" of the ragtag Avengers survivors of the snap was even more of a lame attempt to make her character more important than she actually was. Also, I'm fairly on board with them taking liberties on what is structurally the lamest character in Hawkeye (despite liking Jeremy Renner a great deal), but his dark ninja turn felt so goddamn random.

Tony Stark's death was also kinda meh. I wish it had affected me more, and they tried with the reverse spidey "Mr. Stark" stuff, but it was a little predictable based on all the wink wink b.s. from Doctor Strange, in addition to RDJ being the actor who's most aging out of this anyway. Also, the very basis of the path this franchise went down has made deaths feel inconsequential. I think we all suspected that they'd reverse the snap, and after they did, when they had two characters actually die, they had to drag it out and reiterate that these deaths are for realsies.

Isn't the concept of permadeath in this null and void when they have the goddamn power glove anyway? If they can time travel and snap people in and out of existence at will with all the infinity stones, why the fuck can't they bring Black Widow or Iron Man back again? It's fairly interesting that they actively lampooned time travel in other movies and then had it be an even dumber concept here. Having a "fix anything" tool and then randomly pretending it can't do certain things was dumb.

I'm also just gonna say it: there are too many fucking characters in this thing. Thanos was right. Even at 3 hours, it felt like none of them got enough screen time to really be engaging. I will admit that the one redeeming moment of this was when everyone showed up for the final battle with the Avengers orchestral music blaring. The cameo nature of things actually really worked there, because there was going to be at least a couple of characters there who you were happy to see again. (For me, it was Drax. #teamdrax)

I'm done with Hulk. The half-Ruffalo/half-hulk thing here was weird, and I found myself channeling #taswell at his dumb face several times. The half-hearted smash and bash was admittedly an amusing gag for a second there, but everything they can do with that character has been more than fleshed out and was honestly never that great anyway, and that's true whether Ruffalo is at the helm or not.

The Audis from the future looked dope as shit. I usually find that kind of product placement eye-roll-inducing, but whoever is designing those things needs to be the guy they go with so they take these concept cars and actually make them. They looked sharp as fuck and I want one.

I did enjoy Captain America's final bit. That felt like a good way to close the book on his character, although I thought I recall in the comics that he gave the shield to Bucky, not Falcon? Maybe, my comic knowledge is shit and both have probably happened or been retconned or some shit within the lore anyway. I'm not sure I care enough about Falcon to buy into him as new cap going forward.

I don't even know what the next MCU movie is, but I realized I'm more ready for a Guardians 3 than I thought when the Asguardians got on the ship together. I want to see more shenanigans with Drax, Thor, bug-lady, and Andy Dwyer. I'm trying to think about what else I want to see. Maybe a Hawkeye movie set in the time between the snap and ninja mode? I think Renner could pull it off and fill in a gap there. I could be down for some more Doctor Strange because that can get as batshit as it wants to, and that's promising. I would also be totally on board with a Grandmaster-heavy Elders of the Universe movie featuring more Jeff Goldblum being Jeff Goldblum.

I guess I'm pretty satisfied with the state of everything, though? To their credit, I don't feel like this movie was a series of lame set-ups for other films in ways that would have made it feel inconclusive. I'm both interested to see what they do next and also kinda good on these movies for now if they take a break for a bit or explore some shit I don't care about, which is probably a pretty good place to be.

I thought it was great. Full of fun callback moments to all the previous films, some fantastic scenes, all wrapped up really well. The comedy was not only well delivered but paced nicely so it dovetailed with the drama. It never got too silly for too long or too melodramatic without some levity, which I liked. I want to watch it again just to pick out all the bits I missed because I was engrossed in the plot development.

I enjoyed the entire set up of the movie - literally revisiting the past and having all the Avengers face their actions, origins and motivations and come to terms with who they are. It was a great way to give some closure to storylines that have been running their arc for over a decade, which is no mean feat.

The triumph moments were incredible, even if it was a little much with just how many superheroes (and sidekicks) there were. Cap and the hammer, the portals opening, big ant-man emerging from the rubble, tony with the glove switcheroo. I loved all of that.

I liked the idea of the relay with the glove and the battle with Thanos even if it was a little lopsided. The fight with him in IW was much better choreographed and a more satisfying scene overall. I was a little disappointed with how they used Captain Marvel, it felt rushed. I really like her character though and how she fits in with the rest of them, so I sort of wish she had been in it more. I probably would have preferred for her to completely mess Thanos up and then have some external thing cause her to have to disengage rather than just a fairly cheap "use the stone to zap her away".

Gotta say I am really looking forward to what they will do in the next phase, the characters they are basing it on are ones I prefer to the main protagonists from this phase. Overall I felt it wasn't as good as IW but that's because IW is much better than it has any right to be, and also has the benefit of being the dark middle chapter that doesn't have to wrap anything up neatly.

@notnert427: Just to answer your question about Captain Marvel - you did not miss much in terms of exposition about her character. Throughout 90% of her own movie you don't know much about her and then in the end she becomes this extremely powerful being with no growth from A to B. Captain Marvel has such potential to be this great character and yet the writing and most surprisingly acting is incredibly one dimensional. At the end of her own movie I think everyone thought "well why didn't Nick Fury call her throughout all these huge events that the Avengers struggled with?" which is explained by saying that hey, she was busy. Then throughout Endgame you also keep thinking, where the heck is she when everyone is struggling so hard with Thanos? If she was so powerful why didn't she put on the gauntlet when it seems to damn near kill everyone else?

As for the movie itself, eh, I thought it was alright. I've heard all these extremely hyperbolic reviews, from critics no less, that it's everything you wanted and more. I would actually say that Endgame is everything you would expect and maybe a little less at times.

As mentioned above, Thor got a super short end of the stick here. In this extremely self serious movie at times, he is the constant butt of all jokes and remains a goof until the very end. Ragnarok pumped up the goofiness to 11, and that was fine in a self contained movie, but the Avengers films were always for better and worse a lot more stoic and that humor just did not track with everything else that was going on.

I thought it took way too long to get things rolling. This could have easily been a sub three hour flick. There was no need for that slow building. Gotta say I was sorta squirming in my seat for the last hour because thats a long time to sit in a theater and at some point you know where the movie is heading, you're just waiting for it to get there.

The time travel stuff was barely explained and for good reason because they didn't really want it to make any sense. In most films with time travel they take a while to make sure you understand the rules so that you can have a clever and impactful ending that makes use of them. Here Banner says some mumbo jumbo incredibly quick and we never go back to it because hey, don't think about it too hard. The time travelling bit felt more like a re-hash than cool callback to me. Seeing parts of the previous movies from the sidelines was alright and the elevator callback was goofy-dumb but alright. I just couldn't shake loose that I want everything to be new instead of seeing old footage remixed to fit the needs of this ending.

A lot less people "died" than I anticipated. I honestly thought at least 1/3 of the team would bite the dust, and yet we only really have Tony dying with Cap sort of just living his life in the past. Oh and Black Widow but who cares really.

Passing on the shield to Falcon makes no sense at all. Bucky I would get, since he also has super strength and a cool robot arm at that. Falcon though? He was always one of the lamest characters because unlike Warmachine he doesn't even have a full suit, it's just a dood with wings.

Overall? It was fine. The final battle felt a bit like CG overload. When you have so much fake stuff on the screen it seems to lose a lot of weight. I'm curious what they will do with the MCU now that they reached the end of this storyline and lost two key actors along the way. Also isn't it hilarious that so many people have been asking for this Black Widow movie, and apparently it's happening.. and then she dies in this which means it's going to be another origin story except about a character we've been watching for like 10 years.

Yeah, they could easily shave off at least 20 minutes. It felt like it was Cap and Tony's movie - Hawkeye had more/better stuff to do than Thor, I'm still not sure what they were thinking with Thor. Who the hell wanted Thor to turn into Lebowski, which undercuts the development he had in Thor 1 and Thor 3 (I pretend Thor 2 never happened and he didn't grow in that movie anyway). Thor and Valkyrie randomly trade places in this movie compared to their early dynamic in Thor 3.

I doubt they'll do a solo Cap movies with Falcon, so what's the point? Black Widow was only good/interesting in Avengers 1 and Cap 2, so I think they might've overestimated how much people would care. Doing a prequel for anything usually sounds lame to me, especially when that person is already dead. I'm hoping a Black Widow movie was just them misleading people, if not, Disney might run into the same problem they had with Solo.

I think future MCU solo movies will be good, but assuming they do Avenger movies with Captain Marvel, Panther, Strange, Spider-Man, Thor, GOTG, etc as the leads, I'm not super interested. They'll have to win me over since Tony and Cap were the heart of the team. I think it's cool and important to have female heroes (I liked Wonder Woman a lot), but Captain Marvel felt too cocky and brash - Superman would feel like an a-hole too if he said that stuff. The girl power moment in the final battle felt corny. Now that Disney owns Fox I think they should rely on Storm, Jean Grey, Susan Storm, Rogue, etc to be cool and powerful women, don't make Captain Marvel the new leader or a leader in the Avengers, she doesn't have the personality or charisma to do it. Based off their personalities and roles, I'd like to see Black Panther and Strange step up to be the new leaders, along with Thor, if he goes back to being his normal self. T'Challa tries to be a good person first, while Strange cares about getting the job done the most, so there could be good tension there.

I did enjoy that the bulk of the movie was pretty much Back to the Future Part 2. Which I guess makes Thanos the Biff. Either way it was pretty much everything I wanted/expected out of the movie even if there were quite few logistical questions brought up by the whole 5 years into the future gap. As mentioned before the whole Peter Parker high school situation alone is enough to give you a headache. Funniest part of the movie was a lady behind us inadvertently shouting "Fuck Yeah!" out loud and immediately being embarrassed and apologizing when Captain America wields Mjolnir.

I think it was pretty decent. Not flawless and a little too long, but quite enjoyable.

The beginning has its issues and it ended up proving the Russo are not the best when it comes to character interactions... The first third was rather slow and could be shaved here and there. I get that they tried to do mostly exposition and having small personal moments, but few of them felt sincere (case in point, the Hulk in the cafeteria talk). I guess the Russo tried to outdid other directors in their games and they failed, for the most part, besides ignoring a lot of development they went tough on their own: they made Danvers stoic and quiet because that is what she is in most of her own movie but it comes out as cocky and smug, they made Thor humorous because that is what Waititi did but it is cringe inducing at times, they tried to resolve Gamora and Quill's romance in Infinity Wars, which skipped and ignored a lot of subtlety and unspoken things, they tried to have these endearing moments of banter and small talk because that is expected since the Whedon days, but it never felt unscripted...

However, the movie picks up speed in the last 2 thirds, because the action is so spectacular and fanservicey that I can forgive a lot of shortcomings. There is some level of celebration and sincerity in the last part that is quite contagious and awe inspiring... For all the people that complained that the big shots in Civil War were underwhelming when compared to comic books counterparts, they really outdid themselves in the final act of this movie. Several of the scenes in the last part would be at home in a splash page. Scenes like mjolnir wielding Cap, playing running back with the gauntlet and the portals scene are as close to a nerdgasm as we will ever get.

Oh yah forgot to mention, that probably one of my favorite moments of the entire movie was right at the very beginning. When Hawkeye turns around and you see just the remaining dust of his daughter drift off in the wind and we all know but he has no idea whats going on - I thought that was done especially well.

Haven't seen it outside of leaked footage, kinda too burned out to care much beyond the Fox properties eventually being integrated into the MCU, but from what I gather...and have read, Peter and his friends, along with anyone else that disappeared didn't age during those five years (they were basically in limbo cryosleep). So him being back in high school is understandable, they wouldn't just hand everyone a diploma and send them on their way.

@humanity: People should checkout HBO's The Leftovers if they liked characters randomly disappearing and how that affects the people who remain. This whole movie felt like The Leftovers and Inception (the heist part and Cap's ending) mixed with Marvel heroes.

I thought Endgame was excellent. It blew away my expectations. I had criticisms about Infinity War when I walked out, but none with this movie.

It's not exactly the movie that I wanted but by and large I really enjoyed Endgame so I'd only be quibbling over niggling issues. I guess my biggest gripe is that I struggle with the time travel rules and, like, how undoing The Snap is supposed to work because I assuming in five years there have been changes to how stuff is working, or who shit is owned by, that is going to be nightmarish to unravel.

Anyway, as ever, I think the Russos did a pretty excellent job serving the several masters that the film has and this is demonstrated best in the send offs of various original Avengers. Stark has to die in a moment of self-sacrifice, as much to tie a bow on the narrative bit about self-sacrifice as it is to usher in the end of this era of the MCU, but I'm not sure that you could satisfactorily deny him a life with Pepper. Cap deserves to be able to lay down the shield and live a life but that really isn't possible in the late 2010s since almost no other character has lost as much as he has, so what life could he possibly settle down to? They thread the needle pretty darn well with these kind of things which is why, barring a few hiccups, they can deliver on every MCU hero/sidekick coming out to face down Thanos and his cronies in a film that is a swansong for most of the original cast and thus really needs to focus on them.

All of this said... I'm not really sure how much longer the MCU has to go after this. It kind of felt like they have gone as big as things will allow and everything from here is going to be a step back or going to have to up the stakes to frankly ludicrous levels. Not to mention that, to be perfectly honest, they have lost a lot of important players and the characters picking up the torch aren't hitting those notes. At least not yet.

Final thought, I just want to make a special mention to Jon Favreau because his scene with the kid about cheeseburgers was amazing and if that didn't hit you where you live then you don't have a beating heart you robot.

@deathstriker: I think your views match mine almost exactly. I walked out with a very "good, but not great" impression of the movie. It had great moments, for sure, but as a whole it was lacking in a lot of ways.

The lack of action is maybe my biggest criticism. The first third of the movie is slow enough as it is, but having to wait until the final battle before any proper action sequences makes the movie feel even slower in retrospect. And on top of that, I think the battle is over way too quickly. All these characters come back and barely get any time to shine. It's epic as hell when it starts, and what is on screen is awesome, I just think there wasn't nearly enough of it. The build-up to this moment is immense and it feels like it blows its load and it's done in a few minutes. The Return of the King battle, this is not.

I do think the story wraps up nicely. I would've liked to have seen some of the characters that came back get to do a little more post-battle, but I didn't really have any problem with the main characters' arcs. I admittedly didn't care much about Black Widow's death, but Stark's got me, even though I saw it coming. Cap's ending is really bittersweet too. A beautiful way to end the film. As for Thor, I'm really hoping this indicates he's going to be in Guardians 3. I'm down for that. I thought Hulk was wasted in this movie, which is made even worse after he was wasted in Infinity War, too. Captain Marvel and the way she was used was annoying. I actually liked her movie quite a bit, but her attitude here is obnoxious and unfitting to the kind of person she was in her own movie (until the end).

I still really enjoyed it, but I can't help but feel disappointed at the same time. Infinity War was better in pretty much every regard. It was just as affecting emotionally while still being better paced and better at juggling its' characters, and also having plenty of really great action that served the story.

I think this movie is great for Cap getting the hammer. They naaaaaaailed that scene. It was anime af and I loved it.

Yeah it was anime as fuck wasn't it? So was the whole Dr. Strange is back and he brought back everyone scene.

I couldn't stop thinking about the conclusion of LOST while watching Endgame.

It's a finale chock-full of emotional closure, even if it means sacrificing some of the narrative's internal logic.

Time travel is a golden gun, an answer for every question. You could make the argument that the whole MCU should conclude here, not only because this is such a send-off for the founding forces of this cinematic effort, but because time travel is a hell of a cat to have gotten free from the bag.

@inevpatoria: Yeah, between that and the stakes being literally half the universe there isn't a lot of room to grow from there. I fear they'll have Supernatural syndrome where there is a very natural endpoint for this world but they are going to push past it and struggle to create reasons to care outside of a very core demographic of super fans.

I liked it. Probably the best Avengers film, but still a lot worse than Civil War. Felt less like an assortment of random fight scenes and had a lot more focus on the personalities and actors the MCU has accumulated. It had a LOT of flaws and I think it did more than a few characters dirty, but Evans and Downey Jr stole the show. As we always knew they would (err, after Chris Evans became "Captain America" rather than "dude with a banana up his ass"). I feel Ruffalo was wasted, but he has always been wasted in the MCU

I agree that Thor was a complete joke during the movie. Part of that I think is Chris Hemsworth continuing to define himself as "ridiculously handsome comic relief" which is probably a better place to be in career wise. The cynic in me links that to the Guardians being a complete waste and even more of a joke than in their movies and the ending "As-guardians of the galaxy" to the James Gunn stuff. I can't help but feel that was a way to build an escape plan while Disney was deciding if they were going to stop being stupid. Which ALSO makes me wonder if the 5 year gap was always planned or not, but that is a REAL rabbit hole.

Still, beer belly Thor was amazing in the same ways that Sweat Pants Spider-Man was. There is just something magical about being able to laugh at a "fallen" superhero while still relating to what broke them in the first place. I wish more time could have been spent to deal with his emotional problems but I get that it was already 3 hours and was never Thor's movie.

Cap picking up Mjolnir was amazing. And I definitely got "What if? Annihilation Conquest" vibes during the final battle which always makes me happy.

But overall, I think it was fine. It was very much a collection of scenes, but they were good scenes that generally had fun payoffs from the past 12 (?) years of Marvel movies. I loved the time travel shenanigans and definitely had a "holy shit" moment at them going back to Avengers 1. The only part that I felt fell apart was the Clint/Widow sequence.

First off, how could they not have made jokes about Red Skull? Even just an off hand "Hey, didn't our friend kick your ass back in the 40s?" But more importantly, it just didn't work. Renner is a pretty good actor and Scarlet Johanssen is a pretty great actress. But they have absolutely no chemistry and they've barely interacted since Avengers 1. Widow/Hulk, Widow/Cap, and even Widow/Stark would have had more meaning. But Cap and Stark needed to bond over the 70s and the MCU has never known what to do with Hulk.

As for the "Cap had a long life" bit: A friend pointed out that Peggy Carter apparently got married and had kids with someone who Steve "saved in WW2". And I vaguely recall season 2 of Agent Carter alluding to her having a boyfriend. So let's ignore the entire sequence of Bruce Banner explaining time travel and just pretend this was always the plan.

Captain Marvel was basically not in the movie and the spot of all the (remaining) female heroes of the MCU uniting to not do much while she just rockets through the front lines was hokey. But I also really appreciate what it symbolizes in terms of the shifting tone of comic book movies.

And while the movie had a LOT of plot holes: This might be more of a Captain Marvel plot hole, but how did the Cosmic Cube go from Cap's Grave to 1970s miltary base to Skrull ship to hairball in Fury's office in the late 90s back to Cap's Grave (?) to whatever facility Loki stole it from after they found it with Cap?

Most important of all: Did Samuel Jackson speak a single line in this movie? Tangentially, has anyone been paying attention to the comics and if we switched back from Black-Fury back to Hasselhoff? Also? Who was the moody kid standing next to Cobie Smulders during the Stark funeral?

@gundato: It was the kid from Iron Man 3

@octaslash: Ah. Forgot about the kid that Stark hooked up with Verizon FiOS or whatever stupid branding it was

This was definitely my favorite Avengers movie. A few things:

• I was really surprised by the strait-up avenging that happened to Thanos at the beginning of the movie. The trailers did a great job of hiding the plot.
• I enjoy this version of time travel. I hope they explore the implications that it had on the world in the next Spider-man. There's probably some good jokes to be made.
• There are a staggering amount of returning faces from pretty much ever other Marvel movie. Yes, it's fanservice, but I think it's an okay payoff if you've watched them all.
• Glad they remembered Pepper Potts is also a badass. Her last words to Tony were also pretty great.
• Thor really got fucked here, but I kind of dug his new look and liked that the lighting didn't give him his abs back. The Fortnite bit was great and he should be in the next Guardians movie.

@killem_dafoe: Yeah, I mostly agree. Professor Hulk seemed random and pretty lame. At this point Hulk might as well be a green alien like Gamora. Without the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde tragedy aspect he's kinda pointless. Also, it seemed like he pretty much mutated and somewhat mutilated his own body since I'm guessing he can't turn human anymore, but no one brought it up. The love angle with Widow went nowhere and it seemed like Avengers 1 and 2 were making Tony and Bruce close friends, but Tony doesn't talk to Bruce in this movie and they have only one scene together in IW. Tony and Thor never really talk in any of these movies either.

I'm not trying to crap on this movie, I think they did a good job with Cap, Tony, Nebula, and Hawkeye... mostly everyone else was ignored, and they did a bad job with Thor and Hulk. I think those 2 and "Sorry I'm busy right now" aka Captain Marvel got handicapped by bad writing because they're so powerful they make mostly everyone else pointless. Thor being a GOTG sounds fun, but it also sounds like a demotion since I'd rather get Thor 4. Also, he's so much stronger than everyone else on the team it's a little weird. That's like Superman joining the Ninja Turtles. GOTG being underpowered and scrappy is part of their appeal.

The lineage of the cube is

• Odin brings it to Earth
• Red Skull finds it and makes weapons
• Captain America fight him for it, it falls out of the plane and into the ocean and it's recovered by Howard Stark and brought to that facility
• It was never in Captain Americas grave, it fell out of the plane and into the ocean before the plane crashed and became his grave.
• It stays in that facility until Dr Lawson uses it to try and create FTL travel in the 90s
• Goose (the cat) eats the cube on board the Skrull ship
• Goose hurls it back up in front of Nick Fury.
• Loki steals it from the SHIELD facility that it's stayed in since Fury got a hold of it in the 90s
• It goes back to Asgard, Loki steals it and then hands it over to Thanos at the start of IW.

And now there's an AU Loki running around with one.

@jesus_phish: Huh. So I guess Hydra Shield just didn't care that the cosmic cube disappeared for a decade or so. Wouldn't be the first time nothing about that org made sense

----

The more I think on it, the more I think a lot of things changed at the last minute

The Five Year Gap might as well have not been there. Some folk have poked fun at the fact that Tom "Spoilers" Holland only ever referenced it from behind where they could easily ADR it.

But what actually changes plot wise?

• Thanos attacking Earth could have been a time jump. Or it could have just been a normal hyperspace jump
• Captain Marvel would make a lot more sense if she were fighting off Thanos "in space" rather than helping random folk. Again, see Annihilation (Conquest). Also see how there was very minimal reaction to what she said and Rocket seeming ashamed of himself would probably make more sense if she were fighting for all of their lives in a one woman war against Thanos's legions and not just helping people learn how to farm again or whatever she was doing. Also note how Thanos's legions stopped existing outside of one ship full of people.
• They "avenge" the fuck out of Thanos's head, but even the movie acknowledges how pointless that was
• Thor has time to get a beer belly (HELL YEAH)
• Cassie Lang's actress gets replaced for the inevitable Stature sequence in Ant Man 3/4 (when is Paul Rudd's contract up?)
• We already have proof that Peter's friends also got snapped out of existence, so his movie won't change outside of having him inevitably hit on a formerly 12 year old Gwen Stacy or "real" Mary Jane (gotta love how they hedged their bets on people not being cool with Homecoming-MJ not being a ginger). If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that entire school got snapped out of existence for five years and nobody is going to acknowledge that in anything consequential to the plot.

Same with the way time travel didn't actually work in the movie.

• Widow is forever gone because Scarlett doesn't want to renew her contract.
• But Gamora is not forever gone because they just pulled her from a year or two before her death. But it gives us a spinoff movie of Nebula and Gamora exploring the galaxy (again, in case Guardians 3 didn't happen).
• Stark is forever gone because... Well, obviously because they need to get rid of RDJ to have the hope of replacing him with Cucumber Sandwich or Paul Rudd. But yeah...
• Cap retired but is totally still available if Disney can give Chris Evans enough money to decide to Daniel Craig it. Or they can get him from his (physical) 50s or 60s to swap out actors and give him a Nick Fury role.

The obvious "what gives?" is the Gunn/Guardians bit as Guardians went from their break out "proof that comic book movies work, even with comic book stories" to an albatross of politics and making sure they don't alienate any audience (no matter how shitty). And considering how vocal most of the Guardians cast was, it makes sense to bury them.

I am not sure if it is an optimist or pessimist thing, but I would prefer this to be about Young Avengers/Initiative/legacy characters.

• Stature is already ready. How old was Cassie supposed to be? Because she seemed closer to 5 or 6 in Ant-Man and closer to 15-20 in Endgame
• We got Ironheart at an appropriate age whether she was snapped or not.
• It would kind of undermine his arc, but Clint's daughter is already in position to be a shittier version of Kate Bishop (them not having a familial relationship helps a lot for the "I am just sort of your mentor, not your dad. Do whatever stupid crap you want" side of things that make their adventures so great).
• And Professor Hulk probably did enough irresponsible gamma research that he could have made Amadeus Cho and whatever other parts of the Hulk family that haven't been killed off on screen yet.
• And Ms Marvel would be pretty trivial as they can either go the "she is a skrull" route or just have her exposed to a significant chunk of the infinity gauntlet shenanigans (since Captain Marvel is powered by the cosmic cube).
• Same with getting Miles Morales on the field. Hell, maybe we'll find out he was doing some low level Spider-Manning while Spider-Man was snapped away as the stinger of Far From Home.
• Eli Bradley might be "too much" for some of the shittier crowd, but I could see a movie where him, Sam, and Bucky team up to try to uphold Cap's legacy

Knowing NOTHING about this movie going in, I took my son. It was a lot of fun.

I wish they had spent more time on the concept of altering time. The idea that Iron Man had a present to lose vs. Hawkeye having lost everything was interesting, and I feel like they could have explored that beyond “hey, don’t change shit, ya’ heard?”

I also felt the girl power moment at the end was super forced, and a couple minutes of extra runtime to set that up would have helped immensely.

Lastly, I’m playing Mortal Kombat 11’s story mode, which is kinda the same damned story...which is funny.

@notnert427: Preface: not a comic book guy

I dug Captain America rolling with his shield and Mjolnir. I thought it was a fun moment.

I totally agree about Captain Marvel. I think it’s the only Marvel Movie I haven’t seen (maybe we’ll stream it sometime, maybe not with the lack of a Disney/Netflix future), but she literally showed up to be a convenient macguffin.

She was like reverse fridging (thanks, God of War critics ;) ). She’d appear to save doomed situations, literally say “I’ve got other shit to do, Marvel out!” and take off for THE ENTIRE MOVIE) then show back up to fuck shit up and fade into the background.

It’s almost a situation you can’t write for. Again, I might get a better understanding of her from her movie. All I know her from is Marvel Ultimate Alliance, where I frequently rolled as her.

As a ridiculous, hyper-indulgent celebration of the MCU and a send-off for the first 10 years, I really enjoyed it. I'm really not convinced they can ever top this in terms of sheer grandeur and ambition. Infinity War is probably a stronger movie overall, but this one is even better about giving as many ridiculous fanservice-y moments in as possible ("Personally, I'd like to think that's America's Ass" got a pretty good laugh out of me.) Like every Marvel movie, it became somewhat less interesting once everyone started punching each other, but Cap getting Mjolnir was an amazing, anime-as-hell moment. There's absolutely a part of me that wants to put this movie in front of someone who has never seen a single Marvel movie, just to see how confused they'd be.

As a piece of cinema, I'm a little more conflicted. There are a couple moments that I think will end up being contentious (the fates of Tony and Cap, the general treatment of Thor, how little Captain Marvel actually does) and because time-travel is involved I'm sure it will be nitpicked to death. Personally? I'm just very excited that I don't need to give a shit about superhero movies for a while. Asgardians of the Galaxy is going to be a lot of fun, but I'm considerably less interested in whatever phase 4 is going to be unless they start really leaning into the weird shit.

I like these movies fine, but damn do I not care about spoilers for them, because, well, I'm here! From the sounds of it, and maybe it can be said for the rest of the series of movies, but it seems it's one where you shut your brain off and just have fun of cry like a baby because a character you liked dies.

I liked the movie alot. If I were to say anything else it would be that I would like a spin-off about society post snap. I was thinking when Black Widow was making a sandwhich that "Someone's gotta get the wheat and make the bread and distribute it to the masses, also the peanut butter. How was that all figured out I wonder."

I have rarely left a theater this satisfied. I get some of the complaints and criticisms but honestly none of it bothered me. These two movies and everything that led to them will be something I look back on with a lot of affection as time goes on, its been a great ride and I thought they nailed the landing near perfectly. Within the realm of big blockbuster action movies it really doesn't get any better than this in my opinion.

Excited to see where they take things next. We have a past version of Loki unaccounted for, with a TV show announced. Lots of things up in the air in terms of an Avengers lineup and what not. But the Spider man sequel also looks really good, and we know they rehired James Gunn for GotG3 so things won't feel totally foreign right away.

So, quick question- Nebula has enough pps for a jump to Morag, then a jump home. She goes, Alt Neb comes back, and somehow Thanos' ship apparently has pps too?

I literally groaned in the theater when it became obvious they were going to write their way out of this with time travel. But in the end it was probably good because I stopped caring if the story actually made any sense and just enjoyed the character stuff.

I hope Fat Thor becomes a GotG regular.... though he needs to lose the axe. That thing is dumb.

It was incredibly good. Wish they could make a Star Wars half as good.

@frytup: Yeah, time travel sucks. I think Inception flirted with it in a cool way, but generally it’s an excuse to throw your hands up and say “plot holes, whatever!”

I’m not huge into sci-fi stories, but I read time travel here as almost more of a multiverse mechanism. Killing 2014 Nebula didn’t kill 2023 Nebula. Killing 2014 Thanos didn’t create a time paradox (or a dozen other little oops moments, like Loki taking the...tesseract?). I think the conversation on the roof in NYC pretty much confirmed this, but maybe I read it wrong.

Anyhow, if that’s the case, a lot of chaos in other universes, and, like time travel, more shitty ways to write yourself out of characters deaths when convenient.

I kinda wish (it was never going to be this way) that the snap was permanent and there was another way to conclude the story. It was always going to be this way, though, and they did a great job minimizing the bullshit and putting out a fun film.

I didn’t think too much about the time travel stuff, I feel if I did then I would question a lot of the plot.

I loved this movie and I guess I will share two thoughts:

I’m assuming that Captain America screwed up. Big time. While it was definately something that makes you feel that Cap deserved a happy life, they literally warned him not to mess with the time line and that’s exactly what he did.

Secondly a third GoTG movie with Thor is incredibly exciting.

I liked it. It felt like a bit of a love letter to the phase one heroes. Tony getting to talk to his dad again after having a child of his own, Tony finally wrapping up the looming threat that has stressed him out since the first movies, cap getting to go back to be with peggy, hulk coming to terms with himself, and thor getting to see his mother one last time (admittedly thor and hulk felt weaker, but I think that's because they struggle to know what to do with those characters often). Black Widows send off felt like the weakest overall. It was pretty obvious it was going to happen once Clint and Nat were the ones sent after the soul stone, and I personally never really felt the weight of her death like I did Tony's.

It makes sense to me that Thor would continue on with the guardians. I think that's the right choice to have him continue from here if he wants to keep reprising the role. Same with Hulk. I have a feeling he'll be more of an scientist with a busted arm in the future for crossover movies than an actual fighter. And the whole perma-hulk thing means that Ruffalo will just have to do voice over which may be more accomadating for him.

As for the scenes and storyline itself, it wasnt very action packed but the big battle at the end felt great. As I mentioned before, the movie felt more like a love letter than an action packed intense 3 hours which I think might disappoint those who are looking for immediate Thanos revenge. There are so many callbacks to previous movies without counting the time travel stuff. It made it pretty fun for me to take a trip down memory lane before seeing these guys off.

Edit: also some other character notes:

Very disappointed nothing came from vision. Theres an opportunity to keep him around, but with a 5 year jump I'm assuming hes just done unless we find him in a wakandan lab later. For such a powerful being, he really did absolutely nothing outside of Ultron and the battles in Civil War. Very disappointed in that.

Captain Marvel felt alright. Its obvious shes a little too strong for this kind of scenario, so they clearly try to send her away as much as possible. I easily understand why she might seem lame to people who didnt see her movie, but I walked away feeling like shes better off being solo outside of avengers where things can match her scale better.

Having all the newer heroes return in the moment of need felt great. Very well done and made me want to jump up and cheer for them. I'm not sure what they'll do for an overarching story after this, but the good news is they have some great heroes to carry the torch from here.

@dhutch: I assume past Thanos may have just waited and traveled to earth in 2023?

I’m taking time travel as more of a multiverse, the way they went about it in Endgame. The idea that changing the past doesn’t change your own present as your own present is already set. Instead, a new thread (multiverse) splinters from that time, I suppose.

Happy to be corrected, but that was my takeaway.

Well, it's easy to complain about. I've got a list of niggles a mile long. Black Widow's death (and retroactively the Vision's and Loki's death) completely failed to land, the five year gap has got to be hell for the other movies after this, and the action here wasn't as tight as the last Russo movies. Captain Marvel, speaking as someone who didn't watch her in between this two parter movie, is a big lame-o they never explained.

However, as the ending to the MCU this far, I found it fantastic. I cried, I laughed, and I left the theater very satisfied. I feel like the Russos did an amazing job with the hand they were dealt, and wrapped up the MCU so far s best anyone could. I'm really gonna miss Tony Stark and Captain America.

@nutter: Out of all the different variations of time travel they chose the simplest and easiest to control which is the one where every choice branches off and creates a new reality without influencing anything in the original. Some movies explored some interesting interpretations of the consequences this might create, but generally speaking for Endgame it worked well because it was just an infinite do-over button they could press with the only limitation being their short supply of the Pym Particle - incidentally now that everyone is alive again it is something they can just mass produce.

As someone that thought Guardians 1 was probably the best MCU movie they ever made I'm a little worried about the inclusion of Thor. Back when Thor was this slightly dull Asgardian "God" that did not understand these Earthly concepts as cellphones and texting it would be a decent mix. Now that Thor has evolved into full out comedic-dummy I'm worried both him and Pratt's equally dumb-but-fun Starlord might be a bit much. Guardians 2 already was already walking that line so I hope they don't overextend themselves with how goofy it all gets.

I am actually shocked how much Endgame expected Captain Marvel (the movie) to fill in the gap about Captain Marvel (the character). The mid-credits stinger in Captain Marvel is crucial, in terms of justifying her presence amongst the Avengers. And even then, it's just way too abrupt and/or convenient. She's a Deus Ex Machina for Tony and Nebula and then proceeds to have a cheap excuse out of the story for its most critical sub-narrative. Barring Thanos, this is the most powerful individual the Avengers have ever encountered, and they're willing to embark on this plot to undo the sundering of the universe without her. She's not even a thought.

I like her re-entry during the third act, and appreciate her moment of glory against a full-power Thanos. But, man. What an underwhelming employment of that character.

If this isn't a legitimate plothole, it is at least totally underexplained. The movie shows 2014 Nebula opening up the portal and ripping Thanos's flagship through the Avengers facility, but that would've required him to have the Pym Particle. Which he does, because we see Nebula hand it to him in 2014. But that would, in turn, mean she doesn't have the Pym Particle to make her return back to 2023.

The other explanation isn't any better. There's a shot of her hand disassembling into wires and hacking the Quantum Tunnel. Perhaps she can use space-tech to control the Tunnel and tear entire moments out of and through time. But that's a bigger leap and begs a different question--why didn't 2023 Nebula do that to just rip the Infinity Stones from their places in their respective timelines.

If you're going through Endgame with a fine-tooth comb, this is the part that, in my mind, sticks out as the worst time-travel offender.

@gundato: Just FYI, there is a Black Widow movie in the works (Marvel announced it last year I think - Rachel Weiss and David Harbor have been signed to it), so her not being back in the end of the movie doesn't have anything to do with her contract. I am sure her solo movie will be a prequel type thing, but it might not be. It's possible she did get brought back, but was still on that planet with Red Skull.

@humanity: Yeah, I’m just not a fan of a lack of consequence. Time travel and multiverses both give writers ways to sloppily write all bad things away and tell shitty stories.

I mean, at this point they could time heist anything the wanted. Something like Tony weighing the loss of half the world against his daughter would be interesting. The whole have-your-cake-and-eat-it-to approach was a little too convenient. Hell, you could make Infinity War a trilogy with a second Civil War as the super dark middle chapter, as all these broken heroes struggle to chose a path and push their will on the world.

As for goofy Thor and Starlord...I hear ya. I think that could work for a chunk of a movie, but certainly no more.

@ssully: There is always a chance, but the fact that it took about 9 years or so to get her a solo movie (she originated in Iron Man 2?) and the weird ways Marvel-Disney "burned" Sam Jackson appearances over the years tends to make me lean more toward "she's done with this". And, career wise, MCU was always the odd choice on her resume as she still tends to primarily do artsy stuff and whatever Woody Allen is able to get financed. After her attempt to branch out to more "genre" films was Ghost in the Shell I can easily see a "Fuck it, I don't want to deal with this anymore". At which point the MCU is just another few wheelbarrows of money.

But here is hoping the prequel film actually makes her role in Endgame have a point AND enough to salvage the character.

The biggest offense with the time travel plot device in this movie is that, i dunno, almost hypocritical? They went though all the trouble of explaining how it's going to avoid time travel paradox in the movie (ie "Don't fix the past; borrow the stones and fix the present instead"), but end up killing the past Thanos anyway, causing a massive paradox. They did exactly the thing that they said they were going to avoid! I really don't mind these kind of plot holes, but this one sticks out to me because they bought attention to it.