Cancelling my sub

Not to be a dick, but I checked out the work of this Richard Marx you guys keep mentioning and it’s not very good.

@stise: @sethmode: Ryan Davis once described cops as having "an air of unearned authority" on a Bombcast and that description has stuck with me for ages. The man had a way with words.

@billymaysrip: Well you bother because the OP is just one of the readers. I've read up on a ton of stuff that people are dropping in threads like these.

@finaldasa: THANK YOU!

Just a reminder that it was 14 years ago when the FBI warned that police precincts around the country were being infiltrated by white supremacist groups.

I agree with you.

But boy does "All Cops are Bastards" not even hint at the nuance you are ascribing to it if you are someone hearing it instead of studying it. It's a phrase that does not condemn an institution at first listen, but instead condemns all individuals of a group.

We need a better slogan because the target of persuasion are those that generally do not have negative interactions with police; those that will not be quick to change their minds just by being told "your experiences are wrong."

Is anyone upset by ACAB also offended by lawyer jokes?

Not being snarky here. I'm genuinely curious. I mean, the way that people talk about lawyers, you'd think people would be defending them, too. Not all lawyers are underhanded, obsessed with money, untrustworthy, and seek to profit from a largely broken system that exists to benefit the wealthy and undermine the poor. But, hey, a lot of them DO fall into one or more of those categories, and charge outrageous prices for their services.

So are people who cry foul at ACAB also upset by people disparaging lawyers?

@bladeofcreation: When we try to have a revolution in this country specifically targeting the litigation system whose success is partially dependent on the successful persuasion of those that support lawyers on a broad scale, lawyer jokes will probably be taken a bit more seriously as well.

It doesn't matter if we're right and the cop apologists are wrong. As long as we accept that we need to change people's minds, then we also need a persuasive message. If that means making it less sharp and biting than we'd like, so be it.

Of course, maybe we don't need or want to persuade the other side if we have enough actual power to force reform through. I don't think we do.

@bladeofcreation: To my knowledge, lawyer jokes haven't thus far been used as a war cry in a revolution that purports the entirety of western civilization is rotten at its foundation, the results of which have so far left multiple people dead, hundreds injured, and countless businesses destroyed. All of this is despicable. Disown something, any of this. Separate what you find value in, and what you do not.

It is simultaneously possible to decry the wretched police brutality that is so blatantly obvious and indisputable while disowning burning down apartment buildings, looting businesses of all kinds, running over cops, accosting first responders, and shooting security guards dead. Peaceful protests work.

Apologies about the direct nature of my comment, I'm not speaking to you specifically or asking you to do these things as I don't know you or what you support, but to the perception of this garbage phrase and the flippant nature it is used.

you, uh, you replying to me? if so, quote the person you're replying to so they are notified there's a discussion and can respond, otherwise it's just a shitpost-and-run.

the system that bred the rampant white supremacist inroads into the police force needs to be dismantled as well as the majority of the police force.

I will always love that quote about Rage Against the Machine being Paul Ryan's favorite band until he actually read the lyrics and realized they were basically antithetical to his existence. imagine having a favorite band for decades and never actually processing the lyrics of their songs, what kind of an empty void of a person you'd have to be.

Hurling hate at any one group is wrong, whether is be a minority group or a workforce. There are bad people and good people in all groups. It is what makes us all individuals. I believe we should think for ourselves. Don't mindlessly follow what to think because of what some "celebrity" or government tells you. To blindly think any one group is made up of one type of individual is closed minded.

And if you kinda don't know why this is fucked up well...."we need to whitewash the experiences of people subjected by police brutality...so that some people would feel comfortable."

ACAB is fine...because it's kinda true. The entire police institution is fucked from the ground up so it doesn't particularly matter whether you're a good cop or not. The best case scenario: You're complicit in an organization that terrorizes minorities. To me, it's the equivalent of shouting #ALLLIVESMATTERS, which only serves to police victims in how they can talk about racism. Basically, your ego is more important than someone's life.


What I find hilarious about people complaining about GB is that GB has been moving politically left for years.

if you're going to separate the "good cops" from the "bad cops" you're gonna have to separate the "good protesters" from the "looters and rioters" because there's people showing up to the protests either to instigate shit(such as the multiple cops caught acting like protesters and breaking shit, undercover cops goading protesters into fights, etc), people there to profit off it, or those there to find vulnerable targets to loot. this is a fraction of a fraction of the people showing up, but focusing on those people is exactly what is wanted in order to sow division. and even then, I wager a fair number of the looters are people who have nothing left to lose. who have been fully abandoned by the system especially during the covid outbreak and watched as the government shot down every bill aimed to support them through the pandemic, and just don't give a shit because the country does not give a shit about them.

not to mention quite a lot of the riots and violence are initiated by police. I've rarely been so angry as I was last night watching the portland and seattle protests live, "someone" threw a water bottle at fully armored, shielded riot cops in an arc from a few rows back in the crowd(I.E. something that would bounce harmlessly off body armor) around curfew and that was probably a signal to go all in since the cops absolutely unloaded with everything they had immediately, dozens of flashbangs, tear gas, and pepper bullets within seconds as well as spraying the entire front line with entire cans of mace. and minutes later out of nowhere hundreds of bike cops rolled in to chase down the fleeing protesters. they plan all of it. and it's not just those cops, it's all over the country. then you start to think about how there's 38,000 NYPD cops and it's basically an occupying force. this isn't even how it's been for very long, this is since like, the mid-90s and especially right after 9/11 as they rapidly militarized. also, contrast these cops at a peaceful protest to the cops at the protest of tubby white dudes in tactilol gear in the...michigan I wanna say, state house, palling around with a bunch of white supremacists, but showing absolute vitriol and scorn for people who want justice. it's extremely telling.

the police are not there to protect you. they are there to protect the stratified society in the US. they are there to ensure that the castes we have don't get too equal.

@heis24: There may be some decent people in the police force, but that doesn't invalidate arguments about the evident institutional problems.

Also, just for the record, the particular brand of "both sides" nonsense you're putting on display here is pretty awful.

when that group is explicitly designed to weed out the "good ones", what then? sure, you might have "good" cops in the bottom levels of the force, but the system is set up to ensure no change can be made from the inside.

and putting "hurling hate at a group whether it be a job or a minority" is showing your entire ass mate, minorities are people and can't choose to be a minority. a cop chose to be a cop. if they don't follow orders, they get fired. and I'm sure I don't need to explain to you how hollow and worthless the statement "just following orders" is as a defense.

I should really read "Das Kapital" thx for the tip.

Seriously. that shit was made in the 19th century, and it's still crazy relatable today.

it is precisely "both sides" bullshit.

here is a convenient, very organized collection of recordings of cops doing horrific things to protesters over the last few days. There are over 250 entries. that should say everything.

https://tinyurl.com/GFProtestPoliceBrutality

from aiming point blank tear gas grenade launchers at a toddler, to kneeling with protesters for photo ops in DOZENS of places only to open fire on them within ten to twenty minutes of doing so, to destroying places for people to get water and rest just to spite protesters, if this does not result in massive change to the police force, and I mean MASSIVE, then this country deserves to fall because it has already failed its people.

Why do people always think "ACAB" is supposed to be a persuasive argument? Nobody saying ACAB is doing so to bring anybody over to their side.

Sometimes you do community outreach and try to bring people onto your team. Other times, like when the police are executing people of color and beating unarmed protestors, you circle up the wagons and you say "fuck this and fuck all of you."

All cops are bastards. It's a fact, and I'm not saying that to invite a discussion. Neither was Abby. If you're mad about that, either cancel your sub and go elsewhere, or stop crying and get back to licking those boots.

None of the "but ACAB is mean" nerds ever do a goddamn thing in their communities anyway.

You guys are fucking awesome and I'm here for it.

@captaininvictus: Yeah. I was being too generous in my original interpretation of the post. Already edited.

@captaininvictus: Who are the sides? Who is on team a and team b? I see my city show up in this conveniently edited spreadsheet and it destroys me. What good does any of this do? Which side are the murdered security guards on? This isn't an internet forum fight, people are dying. One thread down from this I'm sure someone is handing out codes for humble bundle. Two weeks from now, will you be happy the flames burn a little bit brighter? Maybe you'll light it all on fire?

The worst part is I feel the nihilism in ACAB more than anything. Stop and think. Allow yourself the slightest bit of nuance. Who is on team a and who is on team b?

Yeah, I'm always baffled by stuff like that. Recently, this local St. Paul news story after Floyd's murder made me think about it. This quote in particular:

"What was cool was so many officers have seen the movie [Zootopia] so many times and they never saw the parallels with real life, policing, the internal issues we deal with and the external," Ofc. Colleen Rooney said.

So, my problems with the messages of Zootopia notwithstanding (I have many problems, but that isn't the point), it kind of blew my mind (and I very much did not think it was "cool") that police officers had apparently watched Zootopia, a kids movie WEARING ITS TEXT ON ITS SLEEVE, and they came away with a "Huh, what a cute movie about talking animals and particularly about a bunny and a fox. My kids love it." I guess?

Kind of terrifying considering that is the basic level of not even critical thinking, just surface level, I'm alive and my brain is working thinking, yet they can't do it and they have the means to kill?

my dude, you are misunderstanding something crucial here. these peaceful protests are the compromise. this is stating "this shit has to change". if that does not happen, then there's a good chance the violence really starts. frankly I'm shocked it hasn't yet with how flagrant the cops are being with their dismissal of the protesters and their message. consider the amount of people who have died over the last few days to the amount of people involved in protests across the country, it's a miniscule amount. that is not to say it is not tragic that lives were lost. but trying to defang a movement because there has been violence is EXACTLY what the powers that be want, to make it fade into the background and dissolve. It's why Fox News was following the police vehicles driving around portland and not focusing on the jackbooted, marching rows of cops launching volleys of tear gas into panicked groups of people from the streets and from rooftops. it's about the narrative, and if you're going "but what about the security guard", you are either unknowingly or worse, willfully playing into that narrative.

@north6: All of those are fair points. In the interest of nuance and fairness, I think we should also acknowledge that in many cases, the police are the aggressors--that is, most of these protests remain peaceful until the police engage in violent tactics that far outweigh any actions the protestors take.

If we're going to criticize people for turning protests into riots, we must also acknowledge the majority of protestors remaining peaceful--and often it is the people who live in these communities that are telling the looters to stop. We should also recognize the possibility that at least some of the people escalating these protests are doing so at the behest of the powers that be. History shows this to be a tactic used by those in power.

ACAB lacks nuance. So do a lot of protest signs. That doesn't really negate the fact that there's a lot more conversation going on around this stuff than just the snippy sound bites.

On a personal note, I don't consider myself to be a bastard, but if an Iraqi citizen in one of the cities I occupied said ASAB, I'd have to agree with the sentiment--an individual may not be so bad, but institutions are a different thing. This is why I understand the sentiment behind ACAB.

and for reference, here is a fantastic unrolling of a twitter thread about how the police system should be dismantled and spread out so that no one organization holds such all-encompassing power.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1268045873432281088.html

@north6: If peaceful protests were as effective as you're making them out to be, we wouldn't be here even having this discussion.

Also, a lot of these protests wouldn't be nearly as violent without the militarized police force there escalating the situation and taking violent actions against otherwise peaceful protesters.

@captaininvictus: You're of strong conviction then, I see that. Everything you say terrifies me, it sounds like you want a war. This isn't a math problem, you cannot compare the dead an injured and justify it for your cause, or you *damn* well better be eloquent enough to speak for their lives.

Stop and think, please. Take a look at that spreadsheet again, and ask yourself if it contains all violence, or only one "side", and why that might be.

the entire point of a protest is to say "you need to change this or the violence starts". we have been shown fairly regularly that being corralled into small spaces to protest in "free speech zones" accomplishes little to nothing. the threat of violence and destruction of order is the only thing that can usually motivate things to change. it is an unfortunate aspect of human society, but that's how it's been for thousands of years. "violence solves nothing" is an inherently false statement. a shitload of things have been solved through violence. shit, the government's "problem" of MLK, malcolm x, the black panthers, etc were all "solved" through violence. bombings, snipings, or just sneaking into the room of the leader's house while he's been drugged and double tapping him in his bed, the US has "solved" a LOT of things it shouldn't have through violence.

it has to change.

Ummm what? So by speaking the truth he wants a war?

as of right now 40% of this country still supports trump despite all of this, despite the threat to dismantle this very "democracy" they supposedly love. like he wants to deploy soldiers on american soil. do you understand the ramifications of that? do you understand that would be a full blown overthrow of the government into authoritarianism(moreso than it is now)? it's only the governors stopping him.

I don't want a war, far from it. But I expect a war.

We have two options for actual permanent positive change.

1. Increase black power in this country so that reform can be pushed through unilaterally.

2. Increase actual sincere demand for and willingness to change in those that hold power.

If "white washing" makes the latter more possible and leads to less dead black people, I couldn't care less how imperfect and impure the solution is.

@chaser324: Everything meaningful and lasting has come from peaceful protests. Violence cannot be the answer, not for this issue. Not if you want it to last.

@turambar:

But whitewashing will lead to none of those things. Why? Because to be an ally, to understand the issues at play is to understand your place in all of this, and how you benefit in a system that ruthlessly destroys the lives of others. That cannot happen if you expect people to appease your ego or word things in a way that make you less uncomfortable.

whitewashing is not sincerity. It's selling a lie to make people comfortable. And it's what we've been doing for years.

@captaininvictus: There's no backing you down today, maybe tomorrow. Peace.

@chaser324: How many years ago was Watts? How many years ago was Rodney King? What progress was made as a result of the sheer violence of those protests that makes you think "violence will get us what we want"?

Alternatively, maybe they weren't violent enough. If peaceful protesting won't work, and rioting won't work, will actual bullets do? I don't say this sarcastically. At this point, I'm open to all options.

@north6: You are literally doing the same thing. You're pitching vague platitudes as if they are complex and "nuanced" solutions to a multifaceted problem. I don't know you, but you certainly give off the impression of an internet type that has no interest in actually hearing the answers to the questions that they ask. You get several people explaining the situation to you, many using evidence, and your response is "There's no backing you down today." Why did you even enter the conversation at all?

They will never be allies. I have long since given up the idealistic nonsense that those that benefit from the current institutions will cheer as it burns down without having an incentive of some kind beyond "it is the right thing to do."

You either force them, or you appease them with an easier to swallow alternative. You will never persuade them to adhere to purity.

if you don't think the violence against cops by protesters would be trumpeted loud and proud by every major media corporation from the rooftops, especially fox, you're extremely naive. and if you think the cops would claim responsibility for the violence they inflicted during the protests, well, let's let friend of the site Ice T state it plainly:

https://twitter.com/FINALLEVEL/status/1267918264350334976

@sethmode: What evidence or argument can I use against such a statement as this? It's such a fundamental, emotional, ingrained misunderstanding of what it means to be a citizen. Maybe time will fix what I can't, but I can't argue with this. I wouldn't know where to begin.

the entire point of a protest is to say "you need to change this or the violence starts".

I may have worded that poorly, but a protest is absolutely a show of strength of numbers to force change, whether that be of physical force or not is up to the focus of the protest. and boy howdy, do the cops seem to want to invite that physical force.

keep in mind I am not advocating for violence, but I do not see things changing without it. the LAPD passed their 1.8 billion dollar budget(which...that's ridiculous. that's a ridiculous number.) with all present members voting aye(14 out of 15), WHILE HAVING PEOPLE CALL IN TO SHIT ON THEM ABOUT THE PROTESTS AND THE PROTESTS BEING IN FULL SWING.

they. do. not. care. they will not change unless forced to, which is why I think that violence is inevitable in this case.

I dunno, ask the Founders and Framers, I guess?

Violence is a natural conclusion to ignoring peaceful cries for systemic change. If you're scared of things becoming violent, instead of wringing your hands over the phrasing of an internet post, maybe get out and support (however you can) BLM and people of color in general who have been systemically mistreated and killed since the beginning of the country? Praise the THOUSANDS of peaceful protesters. Literally anything other than being a "but let's have civil discourse" guy when the point is, for many people, there have been so many peaceful and civil chances and we're STILL HERE. So, if you're worried, become part of the solution, I guess?

I guess my larger perception here is that you just seem to want to pick quasi-fights and feel superior, but then reject any and all opinions that might push you out of this centrist, both sides place you seem to be in. But that's just my personal perception. I honestly don't really have much interest in continuing to talk to you, because others have already really said what I would say. I just felt like I owed you a response so, there you go.

@north6: The country that this is happening in was founded by people who violently rebelled against their oppressors.

There are lots of other examples, particularly in the labor movement, that show that violent protest can achieve results.

Folks, myself and most of the mods have been in these threads on the forums, if not actively participating, then at least refreshing and trying to keep an eye on things, for most of the day. I've at least been trying to keep an eye on things for the last twelve hours or so here in the forums and in chat. In an hour or so I am going to lock the threads here and on the Bombcast to let us get some rest and come back tomorrow for what I'm sure will be another day of talk about all this. I'm sorry for any disruption to anyone who has not had the chance to chime in on these issues but we will be back tomorrow. Even as I'm typing this a story like this is popping up which, fuck me, I don't even know what to say anymore. I appreciate everyone's time and effort in these threads but I hope you respect the fact that the mod team needs a bit of time to rest before we come back tomorrow. In an hour's time from this post I'll be locking it.

Remember, the event that led to the biggest improvement in the standing of black people in this country involved over 600 thousand deaths.

@turambar: Absolutely. I'm reminded of that Starship Troopers quote about the city-fathers of Hiroshima.

@rorie: I think locking the threads for the night and keeping just this and the Bombcast thread as the ones for allowing these conversations is a fair way of handling this. Thank you and the entire mod team for your hard and important work in keeping these forums a place we want to be.