@Grissefar said:

It's funny that everyones favorite Final Fantasy is their first and that every game after that has lost the magic. C'mon man, take of your ugly nostalgia glasses, bro.

I'd call that Hyberbole. My favorite FF IS 7, but I feel like 8 had a ton of magic but FAILED with combat and the last part of the story. 9 was also an amazingly detailed world with tons of character, I just didn't like it as much. (nor did I ever beat it.)

EDIT: I realize my post is poorly worded, so I thought I'd clarify that I was not referring to "magic" in the combat sense

We, as consumers, have the right to bitch and complain if we want about the things that really get us going. I have always hated the thought that "hey it's your fault for buying or playing it, so just shut up and take it." I think that is a terrible way to think about things. All of us have a right to speak freely on the subjects that we feel strongly about so I think that your opinion is completely justified only because like many of us who are here you feel so invested in this series that you want to love everything about it, but, you feel like you can't because of the way the series has been treated by the publisher or developer.

I have felt this way about the Final Fantasy series as well, I played Chrono Trigger back in the day and with that being my first full-on RPG I was completely sucked in. I loved it, I was 11 when it was released and had never really played anything like it. So then I moved on to FFVI and felt the same way, so you can imagine my excitement when I see ads and articles detailing the new Final Fantasy game, there it was in all of it's 3D glory, Final Fantasy VII. I waited all year to get my hands on it and when I finally did just before Christmas I could not put it down. This was it, I loved every second of it, I was totally enthralled by the story and the characters, it changed the way I played video games and in a lot of ways it's the reason that now, 15 years later I still play them with the frequency that I do now.

I, like you, remember all of the characters from the FFVII and loved all of them. I know that a lot of you will say step out from behind your nostalgia glasses and look at it for what it really is. And, I say, why? Why would I want to tarnish my memory of a game that I loved so much. I think that is another terrible argument against certain games now is the, well how would they stack up now way of thinking. That doesn't matter and it shouldn't matter. Some of the greatest games of all time wouldn't hold up now the way they did then, but there importance is built on how great they were and how they fit into the time period when they were released.

Two years ago when it was released on PSN I looked on my shelf at my original copy of FFVII and decided that, I will buy it digitally and replay the whole thing, since I don't have a working PS1 anymore. So, I did just that, I bought FFVII and played through the whole thing again and I had a really enjoyable experience with the game that I loved so much back then. I loved being reintroduced to the characters and learning the strategies to beating certain bosses, including the "weapons" all over again. It was a great experience because I didn't think of it as anything other than just a great game that I thoroughly enjoyed in 1997 and still enjoy now.

I have played every game in the series since, with the exception of the MMO's, and I have to say that I feel the same way as 28daveslater. I enjoyed my time with 8, 9, and 10 but beyond that I have had a hard time finding the same investment that I did when I played the previous entries. Final Fantasy XII and XIII have not in any way had the same effect on me that the ones that came before it, especially VII. The series has taken a more, style over substance approach lately and it has killed the way that a lot of longtime fans view it.

I will give XIII-2 a shot the same way that I have given the last couple a chance to really pull me in and I will hope that it does that because I really want to enjoy another Final Fantasy game. I am not going to discount XIII-2 before I play it because I don't do that, I do not judge a game based on a couple minutes in a trailer or even a few minutes spent in a demo. If I'm interested in a product then I will give it a fair shake before I pass judgement. I will do the same with XIII-2, and only time will tell if I will have a good experience.

@TheSouthernDandy said:

@FateOfNever Ah and now the personal attacks. Insulting my intelligence is a sure sign of a strong argument. I think I'll check out of this now before you bring my mother or my sexuality into it. Feel free to chalk this up as an internet win :)

Considering that you started it? It wasn't any more of a personal attack than the way you wrote your own thing that very easily read between the lines as "you're dumb to think that magic actually exists in the final fantasy universe, it's just a gameplay mechanic. I mean geeze, are you so stupid as to think that regenerating health actually exists in the worlds of Uncharted or Modern Warfare or the like?" I didn't go any farther than you did.

@TheSouthernDandy said:

@FateOfNever

@TheSouthernDandy said:

@FateOfNever Ah and now the personal attacks. Insulting my intelligence is a sure sign of a strong argument. I think I'll check out of this now before you bring my mother or my sexuality into it. Feel free to chalk this up as an internet win :)

Considering that you started it? It wasn't any more of a personal attack than the way you wrote your own thing that very easily read between the lines as "you're dumb to think that magic actually exists in the final fantasy universe, it's just a gameplay mechanic. I mean geeze, are you so stupid as to think that regenerating health actually exists in the worlds of Uncharted or Modern Warfare or the like?" I didn't go any farther than you did.

Wow. You either have a major persecution complex or (more likely) you're just trying to justify what you said. I was pointing out how absurd video games are if you really think about it. And listing some examples. But hey, if you wanna see it as a personal attack, that's on you sport :)

The same way you assumed me saying "I doubt you would understand it" was a personal attack. Hey, I never actually said you were dumb, or that you weren't intelligent. I just said that I doubt you would understand it. I even went back and explained the difference in an edit. You can go read it and let me know if you did understand the difference or not.

I refuse to replay FF7 because I know that if I go back, I am not gonna like that game the same way I did the first time I played it, that being said, I don't think FF13 was a very good game mechanically. The level design was practically all corridors until you are about 2/3 of the way through the game which is almost 15 hours, at least it was for me. But I do think that FF13 had a better story.

I played FF7 for the first time in 2009 and I have to say it was a pretty shitty experience. It was too easy, I basically sailed through the game and only really had trouble at the final boss who I managed to beat after a few attempts.

The characters were shit, especially Cloud - how someone can say he is a great videogame character is beyond me. And the whole death sequence. I remember people telling me they cried and it was the saddest part of any game they've played. After experiencing it for myself I was left with a ".... THAT WAS IT!?" thought. Aeris was such a shallow character and she was complete shit in battle anyway, I never used her other than when I had to.

The gameplay was good, because it was turned based combat which was EVERYWHERE back then so I don't really see how it revolutionized anything.

There have been so many better Final Fantasies.

As far as music.

@FlarePhoenix said:

Here is a crazy idea: STOP PLAYING THE FUCKEN FINAL FANTASY GAMES!!! I am so sick and tired of people who keep playing these games, and then bitching about how the series hasn't been good since Final Fantasy <insert number here>.

This. Goddammit, this.

Or know what you're getting into when you boot up a Final Fantasy game: a story and character driven RPG, with an "interesting" variation of the old ATB battle system, add a schtick (Materia, Draw system, License Board, Crystarium, Magicite), mix in some high production values. Mix it up in a blender and top it off with a copious amount of melodrama.

Believe it or not, Final Fantasy games haven't been perfect:

• VI: While it probably has the best villain and story of the entire series (then again, nostalgia goggles), the introduction of the Magicite system made the entire fourteen man roster interchangeable given enough time (grind). The only distinguishing feature of all the characters was their one unique skill, which, depending on the character, could be absolutely useless.
• VII: Same problem as VI. No limits to who can equip what Materia, Limit Breaks being the sole unique feature of most characters. Also hampered by an inconsistent visual design in the cutscenes (hello Square Hawaii?), a battle system that was transplanted wholesale from the previous generation and, lastly, probably the most heavy-handed story telling I've seen.
• VIII: Oh boy. The Draw System was great; "shallow" enough so novices could go through the game without too much trouble, but "deep" enough that fans could completely and utterly break the game. Then again, you would have to put up with Squall's moaning, Seifer and the most convoluted story telling ever (Ultimecia, I'm looking at you).
• VIIII: Heralded as the great throwback to the carefree days of the Final Fantasies of old... only without taking newer lessons into account. Binding "essential" spells and abilities to equipment that you have to wear to learn the spells is an exercise in grind, especially jarring after VIII. Then again, developed parallel to VIII and probably the last game Sakaguchi touched so...
• X: Changed the battle system so you could swap out characters on the fly, solving the Catch-22 of lower level characters ("I really need to level up Kimahri, but he's so low level, so I'd better not use him... ever."). Then again, Tidus probably ties with Squall for the most insufferable protagonist ever, and that voice acting. Then again, Blitzball.
• XII: Probably did the most to move Final Fantasy forward into the next generation. Top notch voice acting, confident story telling, removing random encounters, free movement during battles, the Gambit system, and more. Too bad it suffered from a very troubled and lengthy development and quite literally lost the plot when the Hunts start opening up.
• XIII: I hate to use the words "mixed bag" but... good characters like Fang, Sazh and even Lightning are offset by the likes of Snow, Hope and Vanille; The great Paradigm system is marred by the corridor nature of the world; the story telling is confident enough to ditch explanations and expositions to the "Codex", making it flow more naturally and seem more believable... while twenty hours of the game is spent "teaching" you everything piece-meal.

There are certainly good parts to all of the games. There are certainly bad parts to all of them. Bad enough to stop me from playing / finishing them? Some are, some aren't. But to whitewash all the warts and call one of them "the greatest entry into the Final Fantasy franchise of all time"? Nah.

@28daveslater: I know what you mean. As impressionable kids some games make a huge impact on us. FF7 through 10 were some of those games for me. You just can' really go home again after a while. It's enough to make you cry.

I agree with your points, OP, and I think they mimic my own (although I've been unable to figure out why I don't like the latest FF game other then it being kinda boring). 
I think, to add to that, though they just don't make JRPGs like they used to, and Square Enix  hasn't seem to be able to quite get it like they did in the old days- or like some other developers have recently (i guess to a smaller extent). I think they'll figure it out though. At least I hope they will. I mean, its not FF but Kingdom Hearts and KH2 weren't that bad. I'd like them to do something like that again (and all I mean by that is innovate, not necessarily Kingdom Hearts again, just another fun game is all) as I realized recently that was the last game of this sort I actually enjoyed. 
 
It's also possible I'm just old and jaded. I think that's also highly likely.

@JBG4: XII is the exact opposite of style over substance.

Final Fantasy and Square itself died with 7 because it went from being about knights and badass moon wizards to being about emo anime bastards birthed from the walking shitstain Nomura. Take a stepback and look at the games after VII and you'll see the clear influences. It just doesn't make a lick of sense to cum on VII and hate on XIII for 'killing' the series, when XIII is just working on VII's framework.

I was referring more to XIII when I said style over substance, I for some reason didn't speak much of XII in my post. I enjoyed it to an extent, it just didn't have that extra something to really pull me in. I just couldn't become emotionally invested.

@CountRockula: QED

@Gaff said:

• Then again, Tidus probably ties with Squall for the most insufferable protagonist ever, and that voice acting.

So true. The part after the first blitzball tourney where Yuna is trying to get him to laugh (you know the one) actually had squirming in my seat, it made me so incredibly uncomfortable.

I think I agree with pretty much every word in your post, though it looks like I was more fond of 9 than you. As for 13, it is the only game since 5 I haven't completed. Read from that what you will. Despite all this, I probably will pick up 13-2 when it crops up. Odd that.

I thought the majority of the cast of FFXIII were unbearable and couldn't stand them but didn't seem to have any problem with Tidus in X. I've never actually played that many FF's, though, the only ones I really enjoyed were X and X-2. I think because each game is so different is why the games can be so divisive. Maybe I went in wanting another game similar to X and that's why I was so disappointed, but if there are people who loved XIII good for them, it wasn't a terrible game.

I feel as though I'm wading into a shark tank, but what the hell. Final Fantasy VII was my first JRPG. Through rose colored glasses and whatnot I know that nostalgia certainly plays a factor in it being my favorite of the series, even though I can admit other games doing things better than it. Kind of how I like Episode IV better than Episode V of Star Wars, I know V is a superior movie, but I have more fond memories of the first. For me, when I played it recently, it cam down to three things; the world, the music, and the materia system. I'm not really sure if I'm alone in thinking this, but I thought that materia was a simple yet satisfying magic system and was much better than the draw magic system of FF8 (even if I thought at the time it was interesting and somewhat intuitive) As for the rest of the series I played them all up to 10, and thought they all had their merits. I have XII and XIII but have yet to play them. Do I want and would I buy a remake of VII? Yes. Do I want every game to be a copy of VII? Absolutely not. When I heard that Nomura made Lightning to be a female Cloud, I was instantly disheartened. Just like we complain about the Call of Duty franchise for not innovating, Square needs to stop trying to pander to the past and try and innovate and create something new. Speaking of, just using the same character designer over and over again is a sign of stagnation. Their updates of the battle systems are at least a step in the right direction. (Of course, not playing the last couple games, I don't know how they actually work or if they're any good. I just want them to try something) A lot of the people they make the games for played these games when they were still pretty young, and trying to recreate the air of those games and repackage them to the same crowd who now probably have jobs and families and cannot afford to sink so much time into the games is not the course they should take. They need to make a new set of games for those who are newly making their forays into video games, for the kinds of kids I used to be. Okay sorry for the dissertation, and I might be wrong about a few things (probably am), but it is something I have wanted to say for a while, and thought this was as good a place as any. Just enjoy (or don't I guess) the games as they are.

@Zenaxzd: That's pretty interesting. I'd kind of lost all hope for another FF like XII after Matsuno left Square. His name is the one I'd always heard associated with XII, but looking at Ito's work, it's reassuring to see that he's basically responsible for my favorite parts of VII and VIII. Still, part of what made XII so great was the story and characters, and I don't know if really good gameplay systems are enough to carry a game that's basically a collection of anime stereotypes. It was enough for VIII guess, but now that I've played XII I don't know that I can go back.

@Zenaxzd: That's pretty interesting. I'd kind of lost all hope for another FF like XII after Matsuno left Square. His name is the one I'd always heard associated with XII, but looking at Ito's work, it's reassuring to see that he's basically responsible for my favorite parts of VII and VIII. Still, part of what made XII so great was the story and characters, and I don't know if really good gameplay systems are enough to carry a game that's basically a collection of anime stereotypes. It was enough for VIII guess, but now that I've played XII I don't know that I can go back.

@Tanith: That seems like the right approach to thinking about the games if you ask me.

The materia system from 7 was really pretty good. The Draw system in 8 was.. to this day I still don't know how I feel about it. There are things about it that I like, but the fact that to get the most out of it you have to grind it out and waste so much time just drawing spells over and over and over again. I have a save file for FF8 on my memory card still that is something like five hours in and four of those hours was nothing but me getting spells stock piled and getting abilities from summons so that I could go and wreck the Ifrit cave in the fastest time for the best result. I know that's mostly my fault and you don't have to do that much, but the fact that the game encourages you to do it despite whether you need to or not gives me a sort of hateful relationship with the system.

@CountRockula said:

FF Game	Goodness Number
VI	1,000,007
VII	6
VIII	8
XI	7
X	HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!
XI	???
XII	1,000,003
XIII	Afro-bo

Seriously, though; XII was the best; it makes me sad to think we'll probably never get another FF game like it. Even if new games in the series just adopted XII's approach to localization and voice acting, it would be a huge step forward for them.

Expanded.

Final Fantasy was never that good to begin with, come on now guise.

@Zenaxzd: I can appreciate the need for variety; I don't necessarily want another game that's exactly like XII either. They made a lot of really smart design choices in that game, but I'd rather seem them try something new on that front than try to replicate what they've done before. That said, there are a lot of things that XII did right that I do wish subsequent games would take cues from. In my mind, XII remains the high water-mark for the series with regard to facial animation, localization, and voice acting, which is either impressive or sad when you consider that it came out nearly six years ago. The result was that I connected with the characters and story of XII in a way that I never did with any other FF. I don't want the same games over and over again, but when one of them does something right, I wish they would learn from it.

@JBG4 said:

We, as consumers, have the right to bitch and complain if we want about the things that really get us going. I have always hated the thought that "hey it's your fault for buying or playing it, so just shut up and take it." I think that is a terrible way to think about things. All of us have a right to speak freely on the subjects that we feel strongly about so I think that your opinion is completely justified only because like many of us who are here you feel so invested in this series that you want to love everything about it, but, you feel like you can't because of the way the series has been treated by the publisher or developer.

No, sorry, you don't. If you bought say Bioshock, loved the hell out of it, and then you bought Bioshock 2. You have a right to get upset that Bioshock 2 was vastly inferior to the first game. By the same logic, if you bought Final Fantasy VII, loved the hell out of it, and then you bought Final Fantasy VIII. You have a right to get upset that VIII was not as good as VII. However, after a certain point, you really cannot keep complaining about how the game series hasn't been good since <insert number here> if you keep buying each new game that comes out. Especially in the OPs case where they are doing it to see if the new game can recapture the magic of the first Final Fantasy they played.

@FlarePhoenix: Everyone has a right to their opinion. That's just the way it is, that is the reason that I can't stand it when someone tells someone else to stop whining and complaining on a specific topic. I rarely complain about a game because I know that thousands of hours have went into making the product, whether it is good or bad. And, I will not say that the Final Fantasy games that I haven't enjoyed as much are "bad" games because they are not, they are generally well made, well produced things. They just don't carry the same appeal to me as the prior ones in the series that I more than enjoyed. I don't think the series has been bad since VII, I explained that in the rest of my initial post. Overall, I am a fan of the series, I just think that s return to some earlier mechanics and storytelling would benefit it.

By the way, I did buy Bioshock 2. I really liked it. I thought it was fantastic and I am really looking forward to Bioshock Infinite.

Happy to see the lack of bashing people based on their opinions. Regardless, I loved 7-10 but 12's main character was so boring to me and I felt like Balthier should have been the main guy. And just like 13, the storyline just didn't gel with me. Really liked 12's combat though. 13's combat was infuriating for but I hope 13-2 fixes that when I get it when it's cheap.

@JBG4 said:

@FlarePhoenix: Everyone has a right to their opinion. That's just the way it is, that is the reason that I can't stand it when someone tells someone else to stop whining and complaining on a specific topic. I rarely complain about a game because I know that thousands of hours have went into making the product, whether it is good or bad. And, I will not say that the Final Fantasy games that I haven't enjoyed as much are "bad" games because they are not, they are generally well made, well produced things. They just don't carry the same appeal to me as the prior ones in the series that I more than enjoyed. I don't think the series has been bad since VII, I explained that in the rest of my initial post. Overall, I am a fan of the series, I just think that s return to some earlier mechanics and storytelling would benefit it.

By the way, I did buy Bioshock 2. I really liked it. I thought it was fantastic and I am really looking forward to Bioshock Infinite.

But why should Squaresoft try to do nothing but cater to the people that can't get over FF *insert number here*? Shouldn't they try to push the boundaries and advance games as a whole instead of let themselves get locked into some sort of stereotype of "only making games this specific way work"? Try looking at it this way - you know how people are now bitching that sequels don't innovate enough? That they're sick of the same product that they've had for the last X number of years? Imagine if FF was still just FF7 rehashed and refined every single time.

Not to mention that with so many people have such different opinions on which FF was the best one, how do you cater to the RIGHT crowd? "Oh, well, sorry, you guys liked FF6, but, we decided that FF7 was the most liked one so we're going back to making that exact same game again."

I think that FF7 did a LOT of things wrong in the story telling. A lot of other people think FF7 did everything right for the story telling. And which mechanics do you return to? People really like the FF12 system. I find it acceptable, but not great (mostly because the system is able to be abused in such a way that for your random every day encounters you never need to learn how to use the combat AT ALL, but then does a bad job of preparing you for doing something like boss fights where you can't just cheese the system.) But people also like FF7's system. And even others actually enjoy FF13's system. Who do you cater to? Who's opinion is the right one for Square to look at and say "yes, that's the one"?

I certainly think that Square has been making a lot of questionable moves. This isn't me trying to say that they're doing everything right. I loathed the characters from 13 and some things were incredibly stupid due to the way they did the level layouts (i.e. "this forest is a giant maze and you can only find your way out by following these lights, lest you get lost within the forest and are unable to find your way out." in... the forest that is designed as a straight line.. how do people get lost here? Ugh.) And I certainly think they could get better with their characters, I think the design over all went down hill starting at 7. FF6 had some of the most interesting characters and who was by far the best main villain of all of the games (yes that's my opinion, but even if he's not actually the best, the things they did with him were so smart in terms of storytelling and execution.)

Which also, who do you cater to for character design? I find the majority of characters from 7, 8, and 13 groan worthy-ing bad. Most of them are one dimensional or characterized pretty much only by what negative emotion they latched onto in their life. Eight is sliiiightly better in that than what 7 and 13 are, but I still think most are pretty bad. But, again, there are people that love some characters from those games (Why do you think that they billed Lightning as "female Cloud"?) People can't let go of the past and what they remember most fondly. But there are so many different opinions on which FF was the best and what was best in it that them trying to cater to those people is probably just going to keep getting them in trouble.

I may think a lot of FF games have major flaws, but I do at least applaud Square Enix for mixing it up when they're willing to take the risk. Not everything is a hit, but at least they try to innovate where they can. But then they still end up torn between the people that want innovation and those that are clinging so desperately to their favorite FF hoping for a return to form that I just don't think they can truly win the fans as a whole over.

As an aside, I do appreciate that you do recognize that the issue isn't so much that the FF games you don't like are badly made and still have good production quality over all, but that you have your own issues with those games in where their focus and design is aimed.

I don't see how people could argue for the cast of FF7 being a good cast. They were only notable because the game has a very undeserved fanbase. Barret is a dumb stereotype. Cait Sith and Yuffie are just annoying and have no redeeming qualities. No one ever likes the animal characters in RPG's. Aeris (not Aerith, you sound ridiculous) dies early enough. Cloud has barely any character. And that leaves Tifa assuming we are ignoring Vincent, which we are...

Edit: I forgot about Cid... I forgot about THE recurring character in each FF game, that says a lot about the cast...

@MasturbatingestBear: Cid isn't the same person in every game. In 7 he was a pilot and in 8 he was a principal. Big difference there bud. And Red XIII is awesome!

@CaptainCharisma said:

@MasturbatingestBear: Cid isn't the same person in every game. In 7 he was a pilot and in 8 he was a principal. Big difference there bud. And Red XIII is awesome!

Oh trust me man I know. FF8 is my most played. I just meant that he is the recurring character in the series by name.

But if you think about it he is technically a airship pilot in 8 too, because Balamb Garden is actually an air ship.

 but 12's main character was so boring to me and I felt like Balthier should have been the main guy. 

What, another one of these "Is Final Fantasy doomed?" threads? Seriously?

We get at least three of these a week now.

@Zenaxzd said:

@CaptainCharisma said:

but 12's main character was so boring to me and I felt like Balthier should have been the main guy.

What was boring about Ashe? Though personally (especially after spending a bunch more time with the game today) I am simply enthralled with figuring out how the fuck her skirt works.

The characters in Final Fantasy XII are not a strong point, but they were also not the focus of the story. The game is about the conflict that the characters are involved in more than it's about the characters themselves. Balthier wins bonus points for his suave charisma, though.

@Zenaxzd: Considering you walk around town as a very awkwardly dressed Vaan, I always considered him the main character. Him and that girl (believe her name started with a P) made me dislike that game. I never been the final boss though, I remember needing some specific magic spell and I just lost interest. Balthier and Ashe were awesome though.

@Zenaxzd: Considering you walk around town as a very awkwardly dressed Vaan, I always considered him the main character. Him and that girl (believe her name started with a P) made me dislike that game. I never been the final boss though, I remember needing some specific magic spell and I just lost interest. Balthier and Ashe were awesome though.

My first FF was 6, then 7, then 8, then 10, then 10-2, then 9, then 13, and so on.

8 is still my standout favourite, followed by 10, then 13. FF7 is still my least favourite. To each their own and nostalgia can bugger off. I can play 8 and enjoy it; I can play 13 and enjoy it just as much. I don't really think the series is going down the toilet, it's just become inconsistent. I'm eager to see waht they're doing with 13-2... I'm abstaining from seeing previews, but based on the demo, it feels much more 10-esque.

6 and 7 are classics. 8 is...ok. Cutting edge for the time. 9 was actually really really good. 10 was even better, and still has the best battle system. Doesn't require ANY grinding. 11 was a fun mmorpg, But 12....dear lord. It had SOOO much potential.

But 6 hours in... Came the HORRIBLE required grinding, the voice audio quality is SO compressed- it gives anyone a headache to listen to it. Graphically, its a few levels below 11 and 10. Probably the most underwhelming ending in the world. THIS was one of the biggest final fantasy dissapointments I've played.

13...was fine. VERY linear, but it worked. It felt like a well built solidly made final fantasy game. Made up for the dissapointment 12 was. 13-2 actually seems to greatly improve on the formula

Seriously, 7 was not amazing. It wasn't even great. It was good at best. People just overblow how "great" it was cause it was a childhood favorite. I liked Secret Of Mana (SNES) growing up, that was my childhood game and will forever be my favorite game of all time, however I know my view is skewed toward it so I avoid saying how "great" it is because maybe it isn't. Unlike FF fanboys, oh god.

@xyzygy:

Expectations and Nostalgia are pretty difficult to sort through at this point in FF7' life cycle. I'd like to think you gave FF7 a fair shake, then again could you possibly play it today without excessive expectations in mind? It's generally regarded in an almost spiritual nature at this point.

Great games, great anythings, are generally just things that were great for you at one point in time. Great things generally reduce to "good" things given time. Take just about any film that wasn't directed by Kubrick for instance. I'm not giving the game a pass either, It is what it is. But I think without external expectations the game holds up as a pretty decent RPG, although for it's time it may have been something more. The idea that the tangible parts of FF7 can be dissected and somehow equal the intangibles of personal experience seems insane to me.

Also, the technology was impressive (at the time) which is extremely relevant.

Lost Odyssey was all right.

@Zenaxzd said:

@CaptainCharisma said:

@Zenaxzd: Considering you walk around town as a very awkwardly dressed Vaan, I always considered him the main character. Him and that girl (believe her name started with a P) made me dislike that game. I never been the final boss though, I remember needing some specific magic spell and I just lost interest. Balthier and Ashe were awesome though.

Ah, nah it's been said a million times Vaan was basically there as an empty vessel for the player to take control of, Ashe was the main character as far as anything meaningful was concerned (I mean the entire plot revolves around her and her actions).

Final Fantasy has often had a problem defining who the main character is. I mean, when you get right down to it, Final Fantasy X is Yuna's story, but Tidus is treated as the main character.

What is with all the love for 12 in this thread? Do you guys remember how half of your party literally had no reason to take part in the story? That the combat required next to no interaction on the part of the player with the exception of boss fights that could be won almost entirely by exploiting the quickening system? That there were random invisible traps strewn about the world that could literally kill your entire party if you didnt happen to remember to reup a specific spell/equip a specific accessory? I understand that the voice acting was good (if you have a tolerance for ridiculous accents exclusive to one character) but other than that and advances in technology FF12 makes few leaps in how it portrays its characters since ff7 and that came nearly 10 years before. I mean just look at Fran, she has no connection to the main plot of the story, and only sticks around because she is friends with Balthier. They never explain why they are friends, how they met, or why she's with him. They never even bothered to give her a personality, she just makes a wry comment every half hour so that we don't forget they included some bunny lady in black leather fetish gear. She is about the laziest character the series has ever seen her looks are all about sex appeal, and her place in the story is only to deliver exposition or act as a convenient plot device. Say what you will about how earlier entries in the series had these heavy handed tragic personalities, or how annoying you thought their character designs were, because flaws or not, at least they were trying.

What is with all the love for 12 in this thread? Do you guys remember how half of your party literally had no reason to take part in the story? That the combat required next to no interaction on the part of the player with the exception of boss fights that could be won almost entirely by exploiting the quickening system? That there were random invisible traps strewn about the world that could literally kill your entire party if you didnt happen to remember to reup a specific spell/equip a specific accessory? I understand that the voice acting was good (if you have a tolerance for ridiculous accents exclusive to one character) but other than that and advances in technology FF12 makes few leaps in how it portrays its characters since ff7 and that came nearly 10 years before. I mean just look at Fran, she has no connection to the main plot of the story, and only sticks around because she is friends with Balthier. They never explain why they are friends, how they met, or why she's with him. They never even bothered to give her a personality, she just makes a wry comment every half hour so that we don't forget they included some bunny lady in black leather fetish gear. She is about the laziest character the series has ever seen her looks are all about sex appeal, and her place in the story is only to deliver exposition or act as a convenient plot device. Say what you will about how earlier entries in the series had these heavy handed tragic personalities, or how annoying you thought their character designs were, because flaws or not, at least they were trying.

@Draugen: I've heard the comparison before, and its amusing. However our big furry friend Chewie was a relatively minor character in a series of movies that has about 1/5th of the run time of a playthrough of Final Fantasy 12. And even for such a minor character with such little relevance to the plot they still managed to convey his aggressive personality without even a word of spoken dialogue which is more than can be said for Fran.

Final Fantasy VII is the second-worst main series Final Fantasy.

@Grissefar said:

It's funny that everyones favorite Final Fantasy is their first and that every game after that has lost the magic. C'mon man, take of your ugly nostalgia glasses, bro.

My favorite Final Fantasy is my fifth.

What is with all the love for 12 in this thread? Do you guys remember how half of your party literally had no reason to take part in the story? That the combat required next to no interaction on the part of the player with the exception of boss fights that could be won almost entirely by exploiting the quickening system? That there were random invisible traps strewn about the world that could literally kill your entire party if you didnt happen to remember to reup a specific spell/equip a specific accessory? I understand that the voice acting was good (if you have a tolerance for ridiculous accents exclusive to one character) but other than that and advances in technology FF12 makes few leaps in how it portrays its characters since ff7 and that came nearly 10 years before. I mean just look at Fran, she has no connection to the main plot of the story, and only sticks around because she is friends with Balthier. They never explain why they are friends, how they met, or why she's with him. They never even bothered to give her a personality, she just makes a wry comment every half hour so that we don't forget they included some bunny lady in black leather fetish gear. She is about the laziest character the series has ever seen her looks are all about sex appeal, and her place in the story is only to deliver exposition or act as a convenient plot device. Say what you will about how earlier entries in the series had these heavy handed tragic personalities, or how annoying you thought their character designs were, because flaws or not, at least they were trying.

@Zenaxzd: I played the same way as you did my first run through and because your character keeps attacking without input its still a passive system. So I made my main character a mage to give him more reason to be directly controlled and then I just ended up wasting money on spells which didnt do very much damage and only used up precious MP that was better spent on healing and quickenings, and not only that but waiting for a player to offer input actually takes longer than the gambit system and because of this I found myself having a lot more trouble with the battles when I wasn't using gambits. Between the sit back and relax battle system and the fact that my characters were often not even involved in the cutscenes or the larger story taking place I felt like there was no reason for me as a player to even be there because I had no bearing on the world.

@WilliamRLBaker said:

I can only say one thing...FF7 was the worst of all the Final Fantasies it was the downward spiral of remaking every thing except the best and forcing all characters to wear chains, leather, belt buckles, and have spikey hair.

You seriously think FF7 is worse than X 2? I mean im all for opinions man but Jesus.

My favourite Final Fantasy is number 7 because it's my first. My second favourite is 12 because it's the best. My least favourite is 3 because I was bored as fuck the entire time I played it.