Anyone else notice that the enemies in this game seem to be a lot more aggressive than in past installments? When in combat im noticing that I have to counter a lot more and i can usually only get 1 or 2 normal hits off before i need to counter again. im not complaining, just means i have to step up my game lol. just an observation.

@wheady: I agree. I noticed it almost immediately. I feel like I am countering, then immediately countering again because another goon is attacking me during the counter. It takes some getting used to, but I do feel I am playing less aggressively and more reactionary. Still enjoying it immensely though.

Well if you wanna use the story they have no idea who Batman is so no reason to gear him....yet

Yeah, it's a bit weird. It's basically the same but I went from countering a little to begin with and then going full-assault afterwards in previous games to almost constantly countering.

It's way better. Gotta have good reactions get a perfect free flow going. The window is much tighter too. City felt too easy, even on hard. I just miss the hard mode of asylum which turned off the spider sense markers.

yea, im still enjoying the game, even more so since combat feels a little tougher. might be a little frustrating now, but once i get the hang of it again, its gonna be awesome. there was one fight near the beginning where u gotta fight a bunch of guys. i know my hit counter was high, but i was so focused that i didnt want to check it lol. wish the game had a place where u could see ur highest combo cause i know i havent been able to do that since.

NG+ in City had the faster enemies and no spider sense markers for a better difficulty.

@tennmuerti: any idea if NG+ does the same in Origins?

Not sure, i'm hoping to test it later today as i'm nearing the end.

@wheady: Yea it does remove them.

Yep. That's definitely a thing. That nobody seems to have mentioned in reviews, by the way.

I did like it, although it led to me doing a bit less stuff with gadgets, since I was a bit more focused on not getting punched in the face. It made the ability to store two combos a nice risk/reward thing, though.

Yep... said the same thing in another thread that it seems like all I do during combat is counter because there is no room to breathe in between attacking one guy and the next guy coming at you.

It really makes the combat not as fun and the challenge rooms to get a certain score are way harder for me... I easily did all the ones in City. Not harder because it's challenging...harder because it just doesn't feel as good.

It's the one thing that really jumps out at me about the game that seems off compared to the other 2.

@tennmuerti: cool, thanks for the info!

it's a combination of that and the path finding. I don't know why 3 of them head for throwing boxes, which means they might be half way across the arena. At first I'd deal with them with the Explosives and the Cape to slow them down and focus on one. But turns out the shock gloves help because your reacting by being more aggressive against them.

But yeah, it's the path finding, and their AI is poorly programmed. AI at it's simplicity will just REACT to something, almost like virus infecting a cell. And with crowd simulation, they should do more, hence why a lot of games they tend to just hang back, some get items, other reload weapons but in general that whole one at a time thing is a sign of good design. This whole attacking on mass, just gives the feelins of ants, or something more rabid like the zombies from World War Z.

Arkham City's combat design made more sense.

Not really. The enemies were equally as aggressive in City. The leap in aggressiveness from Asylum to City was very noticeable though, but that also had to do with being able to double and triple counter.

That cause is that the Bat is not a pro at fighting yet. Basically, this is Batman year two.

You know, I'd like to imagine that's the idea and he's sloppy.

nope, been jumping back and forth from asylum, city and origins. The steam update was a few days ago so I'm eager to earn achievements and badges. Have no shame in my 220 hours with arkham city. Origin's combat sticks out like a sore thumb.

I noticed a rather severe jump in the aggressiveness of the AI in the new game. Part of this is Origin's penchant for putting you into spaces that are way too cramped for the number of dudes you have to fight, but it is mostly the AI routine. Sometimes it just feels like you are doing nothing but reacting rather than controlling the pace and flow of the encounter. It's really a bummer, because it means that you spend all of your time in combat trying not to look like a punk rather than actually enjoying the combat system. It's never hard, but it's frustrating and limiting. The joy of the combat in the past two games was in the "play" aspect of the combat: the freedom to use moves and gadgets when you wanted to and how you wanted to. That still exists to an extent, but the aggressive AI means that you get less opportunity to do cool shit, and the feel of the combat suffers as a result. This is only exacerbated by the fact that sometimes the counters in this game, more so than the last two, can be really unresponsive. Now, maybe they just tightened up the timing or something, but the end result doesn't feel as good.

Plus fuck knife dodges and takedowns. I hated those in City, and I hate 'em here too. They break the flow of combat way more than any other type of enemy weapon.

If you go into options and turn off hints it removes them in any difficulty!

@triumvir: Your one of the few who actually understands what's going on more a technical level. Yeah, I bought this game just for the combat, a cheap excuse to punch more baddies. And when I felt tired really early on, and I came in going "Well it's a new rhythm I have to figure it out along the way." It's the new engine and and the AI doesn't know what to do outside of it's core routines. And the fights makes the enemies seem to be like Serious Sam style enemies eager to attack you no matter what condition they are in, they have a tendency to rush items at a faster rate, and love to go all the way out to collect boxes. The shock gloves make the combat different, but everything else in combat is still the same. Surprised at how the armored enemies look identical to normal enemies, or enemies with guns don't highlight in detective mode during combat. Rocksteady had a clunky design to their enemies, it was easy to read even in the speed of a combat I found relaxing, it more visual short hand. It's such a poorly optimized engine, had a couple of times really messing up on terrain even in outside city combat. Seriously rocksteady handled it better. Actually had 3 enemies unable to hop over a waist high fence so continued to taunt me over something they could leap over in Arkham Aslyum.

To be honest, I dabble with the challenge fights, and it's decent, just don't adore it like I did with Arkham City and Asylum. It's simple to counter anything and then it became this whole risk to see if you could throw a punch to another enemy before you can counter an attack.

Hopefully we will see something new in the new rocksteady silver age batman game.

I disagree.

I'm playing on hard mode for the first time in the series and it is really hard. Enemies do seem more aggressive, as well as taking forever to go down. I've also been having some problems with the camera often pointing away from enemies, enemies "teleporting" towards me when they attack and Batman targeting random thugs while I'm trying to focus on someone specific. It feels less refined than the previous games and I'm not sure if the issue is hard mode or the different developers.

@49th: Your a brave man. Yeah the camera is horrible, even just the whole zoomed out a bit too far and then it often clips behind walls, which is ridiculous. I still believe it's the engine, but I feel the developers put too much time with the shock gloves and deathstroke's regenerating health to understand what was really the point of the past game's combat. Free Flow combat is about assessing the enemies in the arena and going after higher priority enemies, instead the shock gloves just make batman into this wolverine like character. Normally I don't get into fanboy argument at to what is batman but this isn't batman, because in Arkham Asylum and City it felt like frank miller's Dark Knight Returns.

If your really going to go hard, then I recommend to make less risks and rely heavily on special combo take downs as quickly as possible.

after a few more hours im finally starting to get back into the groove of combat. still gotta counter a lot, but you can use your gadgets, you just gotta be more careful when using them. i used to use the batclaw quickfire move a lot in city, but in this one guys can attack you while you're doing a follow up attack. still cant get the hang of that damn knife counter though lol.

I haven't played yet but it sounds like a good thing. I always hated seeing the enemies just kind of stand around as you pummel them into submission.

Al should lay the fuck off and mine his own business.

I actually really like it, and I say this as someone that has never been great at any of the Arkham games. I still get beaten down severely if I mess up on the counters, but I feel it's teaching me to be more patient and calculating in my style.

Another thing is that they up the number of enemies in a given fight considerably over the earlier games which may be why it seems like somebody is always attacking

It's definitely a lot tougher, one of the thugs actually has an incidental line of dialogue about 'Why are you attacking him one at a time'.

@triumvir said:

Glad I'm not the only one frustrated about the knife dodge. At this point if I can actually see someone with a knife ahead of time I'll try to cape stun, somersault, or basically do anything I can think of to NOT have to deal with the dodge/counter bs.

I disagree with both of you. I had no problems with the combat in Asylum or City, and still haven't got a single issue with it in Origin. It was easy as fuck before, now it's just a tad bit more demanding. And I'm all up for a challenge. If you can't do it, then get better. The game WANTS you to be versatile, to jump around, to use all of your gadgets. And if you find yourself confined in a corner, only countering, then it's your fault really. The combat arenas are just fine, just don't try to fight on the roof of a car and everything should be fine. And you guys are having a hard time countering knives? Come on. You tap back and Y/triangle whenever the knife comes to you. Simple as that.

I don't want to sound like a dick, but I really don't get what your problem is. You blame the fact that you don't see enemies armed with guns or armor? Switch on Detective mode before the fight... I feel like you guys are just venting your frustration, trying to blame the combat system, when you're just... inept. Get better. I unlocked the 50 combos / all gadgets in one fight without even trying. The game hands you so many tools to defeat your enemies, it's not even challenging if you know what you're doing.

Edit: I have no clue why you compare Arkham CIty/Asylum's Batman to Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns. They have -- NOTHING -- in common, and this come from someone who owns/read all of the books.

@klei: As someone who has finished City with NG+ and 100% all the challenges in all three games I've also outlined in detail the myriad of problems with combat in Origins in other posts. Crithon is very much on point in his observations. The combat is not harder, it's just more annoying and less fluid, with more issues (like terain problems) especially in game proper and with newer enemy types. As for gadgets, there is no point to using almost any of them (except for maybe batclaw and sticky grenade), their score benefit is negligible compared to simply keeping a large combo going, and it's easier to just dodge over enemies and punch/counter anyway. The constant requirement to counter more in this game specifically discourages you from using gadgets in combat as it makes you more vulnerable not less, it's far safer like I already said to just dodge over stuff and keep pushing/countering, keeping a simple flow going. And gloves kind of just make nothing matter and make everything too easy anyway.

It's not an issue of them being inept, it's the issue of the combat not being as well done (polished) this time around.

I 100% and platinumed both games. I still don't agree with you. Gadgets were never must-have tools in AC, they were only meant to augment your combat score. Same thing with Origins. I don't see how Origins discourage the use of gadgets when... AC never promoted it either. Gadgets were virtually useless in combat, except to slow down a dude or two. It's the same thing here. There are no terrain problems either, I've played the game to competition twice, and never did it occurred to me more than in the prior games. I get it that you guys are trying to throw dirt at it because the AI behavior is somewhat different, but it's not worse in my book, its just faster, and this is something I like a lot. And there isn't that is changed to call the combat system '' less polished '' , it's the same thing from the ground up. I'm really trying to see your point, but I can't.

@klei: The difference is the more aggressive enemies, making a need for more counters, making using gadgets more of a vulnerability and a gamble then before, thereby actively discouraging their use, because it's more detrimental this time around.

No one is trying to throw any dirt, please don't project. :/ It's petty and unbecoming. No one is maliciously trying to shit on a game here, people are just sharing their issues.

I just pointed out the issues I've encountered with the new game in other posts (i really don't feel like reposing all that shit, they are easy to find and look up) you are free to disagree with them if you haven't encountered them (like for example the terrain stuff). But not to dismiss them as non existent and then just say that that's just because people are bad.That was largely the point of my post to remove that crutch of relying on "you're just bad at it" argument.

Personally i don't find aggressive AI overly bad per se, I'm actually almost (but not quite) ok with it, but the way it combines with all the other combat jank that got introduced (like say enemies constantly clipping and bunching up in a clumpy mess) i do find negative.

Well said. I also finished all the challenges in City and S ranked Asylum. The combat in this game just isn't as good because of the reasons you have said so I won't repeat. And as I've already mentioned in this thread... there being no time frame between enemies attacking you. Once you finish one attack you are already having to counter the next one. This was never an issue in previous games. This doesn't make it harder; this makes it less fun. I end up getting bored which usually ends up to me getting hit. I'm not sure how anyone can think the combat is improved here.

@klei: It's not that I'm saying that the game is hard for me, I'm just saying that game is broken.

Amen, Ah-men

there's a point where I got bored. I mean I bought this game just to punch bad guys with "Hammers of Justice" and really early one just felt so uninspired that I felt bored of the combat.

Yep, 100% correct, noticed it immediately. It's one of the few things that makes the game less tuned and refined as a Rocksteady game.

It's not harder, I finished it easily enough and blasted through on NG+. It just clearly hasn't had the same level of testing and polish.

You can keep a combo alive by standing in the middle and countering constantly. AA/AC were specifically designed so that the gap between enemy attacks were long enough to ensure you keep attacking/moving and thus using more of Batmans abilities. Otherwise your combo will break.

It's still a great game, just that and other things felt slightly off, such as some of the grapnel stuff.

@gruff182: your a brave soul, really NG+ Wow, wow, wow, so did they remove the little arrows to alert you when a counter is coming on NG+ like they did in previous games?

@crithon: As someome mentioned earlier in this chat, this can be done in the settings for any difficulty.

The New Game+ (hard) in Arkham City took away those warning indicators.

@blommer4: No that's just there to remove button prompts and hints to explain how to use some items or certain features.

@deranged: same with asylum, yes it's a clever way to show off what you learned from the combat.

"Chilren of Gotham put on your tights, time for war."

Yeah it's weird what they've done. I used to feel aggressive and be able to control the fight, now I'm a lot more timid as it has me a lot more cautious for the counters. It's not broken, it's just I don't think as fun. I enjoyed being able to do all my gadgets and takedowns/variations in a sort of puzzle / methodical way. Getting into a rhythm during the fight. You'd end up getting too aggressive and get hit, thus making you built up the momentum again. Now there's just too much threat of having to counter after every strike. The enemies strike quicker too and from anywhere, so I never really go for stuns or other slightly slower moves as much due to this.

Hopefully I'll grow into it more and be able to be as flawless as I once was, who knows.

@baillie: Are you talking about the main storyline or challenge rooms? And if in the main storyline, inside buildings or outside in the city? I'd love it if there was at least another enemy type that wasn't serious sam Beheaded Kamikaze. And the other type they have in this game is BOX GUYS. But yeah, it's smart your being more cautious, just grappling around the city don't want to stumble upon a sniper or a couple guys with guns.

Replaying Asylum forgot about the straight jacket inmates who you counter slam them onto the ground but can't special combo them, throws off your combo meter if you don't know how to handle them.

I honestly prefer it that way. I feel like the warning indicator kind of takes away from the immersion of the combat and being just a little picky here, it never made sense :P

@crithon: have you tried turning off all hints? It removed spider sense for me and I've even tested it in easy. Unless it's an awesome bug

Just checked it in the middle of a fight on easy switching off hints definitely removed spider sense

Yes, same as before. You take a lot less hits and there are no counter indicators. Had some trouble with Copperhead but everything else was fairly easy.

@gruff182: How was the Deathstroke fight? I feel like that would be rough without the indicators. I blazed through NG+ on the last two, but this one seems like it would be a fair bit harder. (in a good way... I like that enemies are a threat again, even if it's for somewhat cheap reasons)

@crithon:

Well I have those spidersense-thingies removed in my game, and I'm playing on hard, not NG+

I'm sure much of that is to account for the upgrades you can get. Once you have the Shock Gloves and the faster combo upgrade, it's easy to just bounce around beating the crap out of them.

@frag_maniac: Yup, and then Batman turns into Wolverine.