Quick Look: Where the Water Tastes Like Wine

excited to look at this game, i like the concept but have trouble getting through IF games sadly

This is that game that doesn’t need to be a game that Alex talked about last week.

There are so very many game journalists working on this title - Austin Walker, Gita Jackson, Cara Ellison, Leigh Alexander, and others - that it frankly makes me uncomfortable in a hard-to-define way. If it were an attempt to curry favor among the other members of the gaming press, it doesn't seem to have worked with a good number of the major outlets - Giant Bomb, Gamespot, and U.S. Gamer (okay, major-ish) have all expressed similar reservations about the gameplay - but, man, it certainly seems like an attempt on the behalf of the developers.

(I'd also say Austin's manner of writing is not really suited to a project like this, but that's another discussion.)

Oh Abby, Sting has done some acting.

I was surprised he actually has 65 acting credits...mainly playing Sting.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001776/

I had to stop. I really dislike the dialog and narration. Just not for me, I guess.

Genuine question: what aspect about game journalists-who-wanted-to-make-a-game-of-there-own makes you uncomfortable? To counter your "they're just trying to impress Video-Game-News-Outlets", my arguments would be:

A) There is practically zero benefit from them doing so. If the journalists involved in this game had crafted this game to be some sort of weird, communal job-application for other video-games publications, this would be the absolute worst way of sending their resume out.

B) If the developers of this game were trying to "curry favor" with game-news outlets, why bother releasing this game to the general public? A targeted approach to the core demographic is one of the most fundamental rules of marketing, so the fact that the developers, like all other serious video-game-makers, said to the public, "Here, this is available for anyone who might be interested" seems to counter your concerns by itself.

Woah did Neil Gaiman write the story?

No, what I'm saying, in part, is that the conspicuous use of so many names from gaming journalism is tough not to see as a cynical attempt by the producer to court favorable coverage from the writers' contemporaries, one that doesn't quite seem to be working but doesn't sit right regardless. I don't quite follow the rest of your train of thought.

ETA: I've been turning this over in my head a bit, and I think I've hit upon the other reason for my...discomfort, I guess: the number of folks from the gaming journalism community headlining this game is, to my knowledge, unprecedented, to the point where it's The Story about the game, even more so than Sting's involvement, and yet that story is kind of being elided (I mean in general; I'm not singling any one outlet out here). Kevin van Ord writing Divinity II got more ink, so I don't know if this seemed like old news in comparison - but Where the Water would seem to be the bigger deal in this department, considering the larger number of people and sheer number of potential points of contact between critics and creators involved. I'm not saying that folks aren't being diligent in noting that they worked with so-and-so in footnotes etc., but given the magnitude of this case - where a number of the writers of a story-centric game are very prominent journalists still involved in the field - I think the provenance of the game also needs to be made a little more prominent. (I would guess that the train of thought from the folks covering this game is that "the best way to show our impartiality is to treat the provenance of this game as a non-event" - but, well, it is an event; there's no way around it.)

(I'm not saying that gaming journalists should be FOREVER BLACKBALLED from game production, and I'm well aware of the number of folks who have made the jump back and forth from the press side to the production/PR side. But I think that phenomena like Where the Water's choice to hire so much gaming journalism talent for its writing staff have to be discussed when they happen. Like stordoff says below, I'm not suggesting malice here on the part of those writing the game or writing about the game - it's just that when the lines blur like this, certain things need to be addressed.)

I believe the concern is not that they are trying curry favour with journalists as an end in itself, but as a way to create positive buzz around the game.

The benefit is marketing - the game gets coverage because people they know have worked on it, not _necessarily_ due to its merits. If nothing else, it shortcuts the fact that game discoverability is hard.

As above, the concern is not that they made a product for that group per se, but that it results in additional and/or less objective coverage. The fact that they are selling it to the general public makes that worse, not better. Getting your product seen/in front of an audience is also a fundamental rule of marketing.

Frankly, game journalists releasing a game/being on both sides of the fence IS a weird position to be in (I thought the same about Dan's voice acting in 2064: Read Only Memories). I'm not suggesting malice about anyone involved (I'm sure the reality is that it's just a group of people who wanted to make a game), but it's a fuzzy line/somewhat of a gray area and tough to do well.

This seems fine. It seems stitched together, both the storytelling and the game design, some of that is intentional, some isn't. Regardless, it's different, and I'll probably check it out, as I love the concept.

I like VNs and IFs, but something about this really turns me off. I'm not even quite sure what. The "overworld" doesn't seem great and the writing seems kind of bumbling, stuff I could usually excuse.

Maybe it's just that I still don't have much of an opinion or desire to play after watching the entire QL?

I really like the main voice actor, and the entire premise seems very interesting.

The sound mix was killing me in this Quick Look. Every time the music kicked back in, my ears started bleeding.

The overworld is an immediate turnoff

@stordoff: I agree with this fellow, seems like they've got a good line with various outlets (including the WaPo). I doubt its not without effort or purpose.

While watching giantbomb.tv, matt rorie mentioned the phrase "oscar bait" about some movie. I'd say the same applies here: a marketing strategy focused on awards and attention from a critical audience, which could be seen as neglecting the actual gaming audience for critical praise.

The narrator kinda sounds like the announcer in the Soul Calibur series.

Also, the start of the map music kept making me think it was doing an instrumental version of "You're the One that I Want" from Grease, and it was really distracting me lol

Couldn’t make it thru all of this one.

This seems to be rather less than the sum of its parts. Also that framing device reminded me of Gonna Roll the Bones – which for my money is a better story than anything glimpsed in this quick look.

Who was this made for, even the beast crew seemed perplexed at what this really is

I really liked the song at the end so I had to go look it up. Turns out they recorded regional variations of it so that they play when you're in different parts of the country.

Maybe I need to actually just buy this. It seemed interesting and I tend to like these kind of games. I have a pretty good grasp on it, but maybe not quite suited for a QL, especially with people talking over it (not complaining).

(but maybe not for $20)

And yes, the sound mixing does seem a tad off. The music gets a little loud.

I really liked the story trading stuff in Sunless Sea and I would like to see more like that, but this is too hand-crafted for me. I'd like to see more procedural generation of stories, rather than having them on a set path.

There's a hole in my heart as deep as a well for that poor little boy who's stuck halfway to hell...

@allodude: Wow just gave this a listen and hopefully somebody on staff makes a note for it to bring this up during best music during GOTY discussions. Deep southern blues fantastic.

@indigozeal: @stordoff:

Appreciate the discussion! :) Although my personal view is that this practice isn't likely to set some sort of precedence of game developers indirectly trying to boost sales by targeting the followers of game journalists, I do see where a grey area exists, and understand how that may not sit easily with others.

This is a very cool premise for a game, especially if they managed to take regional folklore and Americana into account. Perhaps the gameplay implementation isn't perfect, but I hope the developers continue to work with the basic idea; there's a lot of space to explore in the music, culture, and storytelling space, and I find it interesting to pursue that sort of stuff for its own sake rather than being window dressing to a different kind of gameplay avenue.

Seriously, the music in this is f'n rad.

this looks like true garbage

This game is extremely my thing; oral history of the world is awesome, you have to listen to.

Also Wallace Sean!

Moving on.

@indigozeal: The "game journalists" involved are all accomplished writers by their own merit. I feel it is kind of dismissive to their contributions to say that including them in the game is a marketing stunt. Not to mention most of them are freelancers and as far as I can tell none of them are involved in the "purchasing advice" side of games writing.

being partway through the game and while I don't recognize all the authors I will say that I don't think any of the writing is bad. Maybe some of it is pretty stereotypical and flat, but none of it is awful.

Basically if they didn't have a thing before each episode telling you who wrote which character I don't think I would have noticed anything regarding the writing.

Rooooooooooxanne.

Like the art, the music, the ideas. If only this was half the length, or as multiple reviewers pointed out, let the player walker faster. Here's to hoping the devs patch it somehow.

Again, it's not the quality of their writing; it's the fact that so many of the writers involved have had professional and personal relationships with a lot of the people who are going to be talking about the game in the gaming press and writing about it in a critical capacity.

@indigozeal: But if we agree they were hired for their skill and we also trust our favorite game reviewers to be professional (such as the way I trust the GB crew), then what is the issue?

The people who care about games enough to work professionally in the space are bound to know each other. It like with award shows, the judges know the people they are judging quite well, so you could say there is potential for conflict of interest. But what choice do you have? The people who know enough about games to judge them in an award show context are the people who make them or write about them professionally, and you can't do that without meeting people in the space. You just have to trust in their professionalism.

1) We don't quite agree on that point. As discussed, for a game to hire such an unprecedented number of currently-working game journalists does raise eyebrows for me as a consumer and raise the question of whether there might be ulterior motives at work. In other words, regardless of these journalists' writing skill, skill might not be the primary determinant for hiring, if you follow me. That might not be the case - but the question can't help but come to mind given the unusualness of the scenario. If there is another explanation, then that's all the more reason for how this project came together to be discussed openly in its coverage.

2) Even if we trust folks, it's still important for certain ethical safeguards to be followed. We can't exempt people from following ethical guidelines just because we like them. That's kind of a basic thing. As I mentioned, reviewers are usually duly noting that they've worked with certain members of the staff in review footnotes etc. - but there are so many points of contact here between the critical and production sides that I feel this aspect of the game deserves to be addressed more up-front.

@indigozeal: agree to disagree I suppose. :)

I wish there were more to the stories. I'm not sure I see the point of having a game based around changing and growing stories if you just collect them like a currency. It would be cool to feel some sort of ownership over these tales and then to see them escape your grasp, instead of using snippets of them to "buy" other people's life story.