Does Mick Gordon's departure from Id make you less enthusiastic about what's next for Doom or Id/Bethesda in general?

I liked the music in Doom 2016 but it wasn't anything so profound or special that its a factor in my decision to buy the game. And I'm a metal guy too. It's good stuff in game but never wanted to listen to it out of the game for a second.

Based on what I've read from both Mick and id and the timelines involved, it seems like Mick agreed to terms and a deadline from id, he couldn't deliver on the first deadline and id gave him an extension but Mick failed to give them the music mixed as it should have been on the 2nd deadline and id had to work with what they had. Mick seemed to be fine with publicly shitting on the audio well before the 1st deadline so it seems like he was being a bit of a DIva.

Not really, but I'm finding myself in the camp that considers DOOM 2016 more and more a lightning in a bottle scenario. I never had any superlative thoughts about the Wolfenstein soundtracks and, from what I played, the DOOM Eternal soundtrack was pretty ambient in a way that was...interesting but felt very much like just another video game soundtrack. 2016's also the only id game I've blitzed through in the modern era purely because of gameplay; without its story hooks, I'd have dropped both Wolfensteins at some point due to what I find poor level design (they often looked great at the expense of being readable, IMO).

So...yea, no not really. I've also found it kind of wild how singularly focused the DOOM community has been on this story since it first grew legs, especially since the hardcore fanbase seems to have taken to the game way, way more than I and the GB community did. I'd be curious to know how fans are reacting to the season pass nature it seemed to be going for and the multiplayer mode one month in but instead everything that comes across my feed is just more Mick Gordon complaints. Feels even sillier now that it was clearly a series of miscommunications between a procrastinating artist and an increasingly under deadline corporation, a tale as old as time.

In fact...I'd say Gordon comes out of this looking a little petty in my eyes.

I mean, as rude as it may seem, they are a game developer not a music studio. Gordon is great but there are a lot of great metal musicians so...

Also, agree with @nodima regarding the pettiness.

Entirely depends on how his replacement follows up really. Not super attached to Mick Gordon himself but the music was absolutely key in my enjoyment of the past 2 games.

I tend to agree given whats come after.

I also have posted about this before but I think there is some misleading narrative around DOOM 2016 in its focus. On GB they are always praising the games story, and while I did enjoy it overall some of the things they give it so much credit for are just not the case. Yeah the DOOM guy does blow through some story moments in a way that feels funny and cool, but all that codec/watch holograms/stand there and watch cutscene shit is still in the game. They didn't not do that stuff. To me it feels like they partial did it, got a big response, then the view after is distorted by people. Its very misleading to act like that was what the game was actually doing. I've heard Brad in particular say that a lot.

The reason that may matter is you may see the next game them not nail it, which is just what happend. The sequel didn't go in some ignore all story/less story direction at all because the first game didn't actually do that totally either. It basically had a few moments where it made jokes about being a quiet protagonist who does what they are told and is a good listener but overall did it the same as most games (and not well either).

Sorry to fly off like that but to your point, as with the music, it all seems to have just struck gold at that one point with 2016 in a way that wasn't all by design and a plan working out exactly. That happens in games for sure.

Gonna be honest I didn't really know who did the music for Doom 16 or that it was the same this time so uh.. I'll probably be just fine with it.

Nah, it's post-project and people often see that as a nice time to leave.

Not really. The music worked well in 2016. I can't remember most of it from Eternal but Eternal overall is largely forgettable. His sound isn't THAT iconic to instantly catch my ear. For instance Mick Gordon also did the soundtrack for Arkane's Prey reboot. Loved that game and the music was appropriately eerie but I was surprised to learn later on that he was responsible for it.

As for him being petty? Well I don't know all the facts but coming from the perspective of a creative: if I was commissioned to make art for something, delivered some great vibrant looking pieces and then the client went ahead and desaturated all the colors making it look flat and lifeless then yah I too would be pissed and would not want to work with them again. Your art represents you and your abilities. You don't want to have poorly mixed audio associated with your name because that can hurt you in the long run. So I think he has every right to be upset about it - but once again, without all the details it's hard to say where the blame really lies.

This doesn't really make me less interested, no. DOOM Eternal itself made me less interested in the future of DOOM. The changes made just weren't for me and I have no desire to pick it back up and see it through.

If the relationship between Meshuggah, Vildhjarta, Periphery, and Animals as Leaders is any indication, then it shouldn't be too hard to find an artist that's similar to Mick Gordon; despite how neurotic fans of either Mick, id and Bethesda can be.

I like Doom 2016's soundtrack, so it is kind of a bummer. But truth be told, consequences happen when you don't fully live up to terms that you've agreed to. And I'm sure that that this isn't the last we'll hear from Mick, so, it's unfortunate, but it won't end his career.

I felt like his music was off-kilter enough that it would stand out if compared against other (?) metal soundtracks. I liked the music in Doom 2016, it helped define what that game was (at least for me), and it made the combat more intense. And I thought his music for Eternal was more varied and memorable. So, this falling-out is definitely disappointing.

Whether it will affect my enjoyment of future titles is hard to say. My only concern is that id tries to get someone and tasks them with replicating the sound of the past two games. I'm way more interested in seeing what other composers can come up with to complement the gameplay of Doom. And I'm not particularly married to the idea that Doom is "metal."

Since I brought up "petty", I feel it's worth responding directly. I no longer do this even as a hobby really, but I refer to my past as a music critic more often than I should for somebody that never did much with that other than randomly wind up as a quote in a NY Times bestseller years after I'd hung up the keyboard (wow!). Especially since, as an employee, I was uniquely horrible. In four years of writing for a Metacritic and Wikipedia worthy publication, I turned in a review when asked for precisely never. I was more likely to turn in a review for something I'd never been asked to review - or something the publication had reviewed which I wanted to offer a counterpoint for - than I was to handle my assignments punctually.

Which is to say that I hated when my reviews would get spiked, either to a point that they'd be published days if not weeks after they were relevant or plain relegated to our internal messaging system's lore book as another writer got tasked with covering the album and cranked out a perfectly good review in days if not hours. That was the price I paid to do what I thought was right for my workflow, and I was always humble about it (except, again, when I pushed for a counterpoint review) because I knew I was a problem for my coworkers let alone my editors. The editors wanted my words, and the coworkers wanted the assignments I got - what good are the words if they don't exist, and how valuable is the high value assignment if it gets delivered to the guy who never delivers on time?

When I say "petty", I mean that Gordon appears to have presented how this situation unfolded in a disingenuous manner. I don't begrudge Gordon wishing his work were presented the way he wanted, but we know now how that work was produced and that he's as much to blame for that as anyone else. We know that the music sounds good in the game, why it sounds good in the game, and why what sounds good in the game wouldn't necessarily sound good in real life (RIP MIDI files). I've watched Mick's GDC talk on the music from DOOM 2016 three or four times and appreciate just how minute his attention to detail was on those tracks, how specific his love for that project was.

For a variety of reasons, he didn't get to have the all-encompassing control over this game's music as he did that game's. A good deal of that likely owes to the success of his previous work, and with that probably comes an equal amount of pride in that previous work and disappointment in the presentation of the current work. But if he had a deal with the guy that made his music work in the video game to finish what he couldn't or wouldn't for the OST that promised to consumers on a specific date, and then threw that guy under the bus when fans didn't like the end product (without explaining, as he did so eloquently in his GDC talk and Marty did in his Reddit post, why it's a result of the difference between sound files in a video game and sound files in a straight up musical composition and who had access to what) I can't foster a lot of sympathy for him.

Or, art is beautiful, commerce is ugly, and it's almost never fun when the two intertwine.

Mick's fine, but his music isn't all that profound. I'm kind of looking forward to seeing who can replace him and take it a step further. From a guitarist standpoint, the riffing was nothing spectacular so I wasn't sure why he got so much attention.

If you listen to BFG Division closely, it's really simple and repetitive. Nothing approaching the memorable compositions of stuff Descent into Cerberon or Quad Machine (two songs that really inspired my playing as a teen, so it was wonderful to seem them get resurrected recently).

New Doom's music worked in context, but anytime I pulled up a song without the game I had a hard time getting through it.

This situation is a bummer, but I have faith that id will find a better fit. Both professionally and creatively.

His soundtracks are phenominal, so while i'll always be interested in a good game i'd be lying if i said it wouldn't affect my excitement.
I don't envy the next composer, what do you do try and copy the style? Come up with your own brand of aggressive electronic metal? Not saying someone couldn't take a good crack at it but people will be comparing.

I was never as blown away with 2016's soundtrack as most people, but that was mostly because of his work on Wolfenstein, which sounds like it's actually trying to kill me.

@nodima: As I wrote above I am not familiar with the entire situation. If as you say he delivered work late and was difficult to work with then yah it does seem disingenuous to complain about it later. Especially if you’re not producing the work you’re being paid for but still collecting the paycheck. I’m pretty sure the truth is somewhere in between cause it’s hard to believe he understood the process in 2016 but suddenly forgot for Eternal.

Not especially, but then again I muted the Doom 2016 soundtrack after about an hour and put on a Slayer playlist instead so I might be a bit biased.

I love what Mick did with 2016 and Eternal, and the music is a massive part of the identity of these two games; anyone who isn't aware of that hasn't been paying attention. That being said, he's a talented and creative composer in a sea of talented and creative composers, and there will be a lot of them ready and willing to take over his role.

You could tell me Andrew Hulshult is doing all the music going forward, and I really don't think much would change. He's just the first person that comes to mind, too.

@stephen_von_cloud: I feel like saying they randomly stumbled upon something good is selling the hard work of those at id pretty short.

@ripelivejam: its not randomly stumbled upon something good, it's many factors combined to reach a certain point where things come together just right. Sometimes that can involve compromise or work that isn't as intended. I am not saying that at all.

It's the same reason there are many bands that come out with an amazing first album and the second, refined version isn't quite as good or strong of a vision. They did more work on that second album, had more feedback, but that doesn't mean the response is better. It's just how games and a lot of art can work.

There have been things that people have loved in games mechanically that were totally the result of a compromised vision, sometimes even stuff that is entirely unintended.

With regards to the story stuff, I see it how I outlined in my post and the sequel had a lot more story in it actually so it doesn't seem like the developers had some anti story blow it off attitude that some really championed from the first game.

I think Mick Gordon did a great job on both games, but I also think there are a lot of very talented artists out there that could continue the series and come up with new music that stays true to what Mick Gordon has established, or even do something new and great.

The events surrounding his departure are what make me concerned. Doom Eternal, while I think it's a fantastic improvement with regards to the gameplay, was a massive downgrade for everything else from 2016, which makes me think that everything that was good about 2016 was an accident, except for the gameplay.

More specific to the topic, this series of events bothers me: Doom Eternal was due in November, delayed (in October) to March, and Mick Gordon was only signed on to do the soundtrack in January, 6 months or so after the soundtrack had been announced. That timeline is nuts. There's definitely a he said/she said situation going on, which id pointing to Mick Gordon being late delivering, but why the hell were they only contacting him in January to begin with? I feel like that open letter gave us some insight into how messy things might be over at id and bethesda. At the moment neither id/bethesda nor Mick Gordon come out of this looking particularly great.

@humanity: It seems the primary difference between the two was that the DOOM OST was released like two years after the original game came out or something like that. It was essentially a Mick Gordon album with DOOM iconography by that point. But due to its popularity id/Bethesda/Zenimax decided to promise that same style of product with certain special editions of the game, so they were scrambling not to break consumer protection standards by delivering a product that didn't contain what they'd advertised and collected payment for.

It's why I kind of went on a rant about my own procrastination habits. It's one thing when you have all the time in the world to do what you want with your work, it's another when you're commissioned to complete something by a set date and are very much not the sort of person to be counted on to deliver that something.

Doom Eternal made me less interested in what's next for Doom.

The music in Eternal was like the rest of the game, just sort of there. Its mixing was way more noticeable and there's not a single standout track.

Also I'm fairly sure he did the ost for Wolfenstein 2 and I don't remember anything standout about that other than that horrendous cover at the credits.

@nodima: it was four months not two years. Doom was May, ost was September. I don't know how long the original took him to master, how long he worked on it, but Eternal has a much higher track count. I think it was a bad idea to try and have him complete it in time for the CE, particularly if they didn't have him under contract when the CE was announced but where still looking for him to work with them.

And I think it was a bad idea for him to a) agree to that timeline and b) try add more music and thus more work.

Djent is pretty old-hat anymore. There are a million copycats.

Somewhat disappointed, but it’s not *the* thing that I played 2016 and Eternal for, so I’m not just going to hop off the train because of this.

But I do hope that whoever they’ll get to replace Mick will nail it, because great music is important for a game. As an example, I like the music in the new Hitman games just fine, but it ain’t no Jesper Kyd.

He definitely had a style that won't be easy to replicate, but there are also tons of djenty bands and musicians out there that would be happy for some time in the limelight. Not worried about the next Doom game having a good soundtrack.

I'm curious, though - how many people who think Doom's soundtrack is "phenomenal" have also spent time listening to Animals as Leaders, Periphery, Meshuggah, and such? Or metal? Or extreme music in general? Doom's soundtrack is great while playing the game but I've never stayed interested for more than two or three songs outside of the game. It's fine.

Could not care less. Im happy the next Doom will get a chance to sound different and im happy Mick will be able to work on other stuff instead. Was Doom awesome with his soundtrack? Yes it absolutely was. And now we got two of those in a short-ish time and now im ready for something else.

Also yeah the doom soundtrack has absolutely nothing on the music that inspired it, but I think it fits the game really well presicely because of that. Any more melody wouldve been too distracting and the same for anything more technical and crazy.....But yeah im not sure i could listen to it outside of the game, it just sounds like the most boring djent music immaginable to me then :P. I think its too bad people often get scared off by the more extreme side of metals vocals. Dooms soundtrack has made me suspect that otherwise way more people would be digging the shit outa that stuff. But its ok like this, not trying to say theres anything wrong with it :)

It's a big blow, but like has been said, it's mostly djent, and that's not exactly hard to find. Mick's awesome, but he's not Buckethead or anything.

I'm actually more worried about Doom 3 (lol) because Eternal went SO balls-out that I don't know how they'll top it without going too far in that direction. It's the same conundrum that Saints Row 4 left the series with: How do you escalate? They're painting themselves into a corner with both plot and gameplay. Don't get me wrong, I have faith that whatever they do will be a blast, it's just something I've been chewing on since I finished Eternal.

As someone who already thinks Eternal went waaaayyyyy too far "in that direction," I would really like them to scale significantly back on the crazy, both visually (Eternal was too garish and "aracade-y" for my taste), and gameplay wise. To me, Doom is about moving fast while shooting big demons with big guns. Anything more than that just dilutes the product. So I'd love it if they ditched the cooldowns, and the platforming, and the lame cutscenes. Basically everything they added in Eternal should be taken back out.

Less is more. Which might seem like a strange thing to say when talking about Doom, but I think it's true in this case.

I like Mick Gordon's work a lot and I think he'll add a particular voice to whatever project he's a part of next. I'm still of the opinion that his Killer Instinct theme is the most fun I've had with music this generation.

As for the future of Doom—it really feels like the franchise and the studio have bigger questions to answer right now. Doom Eternal isn't divisive because of its soundtrack.

As someone who liked precisely how far Eternal went in "that" direction... I want to see what else modern id can do entirely. A new id IP, or maybe a realization of what Rage could be if it were a good game, sounds way more interesting than another modern Doom. I say that as someone who thinks Doom Eternal is just as good, if not better, than 2016 - I feel like I got all I really needed out of that formula with Eternal. I wouldn't complain about more, I'd be hyped about more, but also what else can this studio do?

They promised the fans an OST on release date before they even had their artist contracted. They demanded 59 tracks of him. They studio was going through horrific crunch right up until release. I don't believe for one single second that this letter written by Marty Stratton (ie. an entire army of legal experts aiming to spin the story against Mick as hard as possible) contains the actual truth of what happened. And posting it in an open letter on Reddit, instead of resolving their issues privately between parties? Their attempt to bury Mick couldn't be more obvious, and yet people are lapping it up and claiming that "both sides" have been heard, despite Mick's only objection being a tweet to a fan who was publicly dragging his work.

Id and Bethesda made a bad move here and threw Mick under the bus.

Hugo Martin trying to turn Doomguy into a He Man-esque comic book hero makes me less enthusiastic about what's next for the Doom franchise.

A little bit, but I haven't played Eternal yet. I may or may not have strong opinion after that.

Just an update since we now know who the composer will be for the DLC for Doom Eternal, and perhaps future Id games. To, probably no one's surprise, Andrew Hulshult will compose the music for the DLC. That's good, he is a good composer that fits.

The goundwork for the score of Doom is laid at this point. It sucks that Gordon won't be lending his talent to the next installment, but it's not as though another composer won't be able to identify what worked about the last two games and do it again - to some extent at least. My main takeaway from all that office drama that was unveiled was a mild suspicion that there might be communication issues amongst the higher-ups at the studio. Maybe they run into problems organizing the next project? I'm not so convinced as to lose faith in it; Doom and Doom Eternal are both stellar first-person-shooters and I look forward to whatever they do next.

Honestly, the over reliance on Bethesda.net in Doom Eternal as well as the Denuvo debacle would sooner stir me full of doubt than any mishaps with the score.

@jamesbomb: I bumped the thread to update everyone on who was picked to be the composer for the DLC.

I called it! The most painfully obvious choice and a completely unimpressive and underwhelming prediction, but I called it!