Which of your favourite roguelites/run-based games are too dang long OR too dang short?

I'm gonna throw a lot of stuff vaguely under the "run-based" umbrella here, so long as the game is meant to be played more than once, and usually features randomly generated PvE missions/levels, and probably has a variety of possible player classes/characters/upgrades/items. I don't know where to draw the line between roguelite and randomized dungeon crawler.

TOO DANG LONG:

• FTL (the 8 sectors are just very long, it takes something like 3+ hours to see credits unless you have some kind of very aggressive build or you're Never Pause Navarro)
• Rogue Legacy 1 (you can run headlong into danger if you want, but if you want to farm easy money you can spend each run clearing out low level zones and this takes a long time as you get deeper into the game)
• Kingsway (more of a loot-based dungeon crawler, but it's run-based and I think the runs are entirely too long for similar reasons to Rogue Legacy: you are encouraged to spend a lot of time farming XP and finding loot as you go)
• Darkest Dungeon (technically more of an XCOM-like, but each campaign feels like a "run" that is 2 or 3 times longer than it has any right to be)

TOO DANG SHORT:

• Invisible Inc. (for an XCOM-like tactical run-based thing, you only do 6-7 missions before you're forced into the run finale, and this never felt like enough time to really get into kitting out your agents with upgrades and equipment, especially if you rescue more agents along the way)

I've always wondered how devs decide what feels like the right length for a "run-based" roguelite. I assume playtesting early versions gives them a good idea, but I feel like some games slipped through to release with a frustrating length.

What roguelite or run-based games do you feel are not the right length?

Into the Breach can go for awhile. I love the game but I spent way too many late nights being surprised that it's 2am. Luckily, you can come back later, but it made me wish it had a lengthy campaign instead of just being a roguelike.

There's a maximum allowable product of [average run length ] x [severity of late-game difficulty spike] that I find most roguelikes wildly exceed. They include:

* Dead Cells: I think it's less that it's too long and more that the back half just isn't any good. The enemy attack animations become far less legible than they are earlier in the game, and I always found myself relying more and more on using traps and ranged attacks, which is too bad because I'm here for a more kinetic and reactive style of game.

* FTL: Love to spend so much time to get to a boss who instantly crushes me. At least most Dark Souls bosses have the decency to be kind of near a bonfire.

* Darkest Dungeon: You said it. I loved that game right up until the end, where it all but forces you to go through the arduous process of rebuilding your team after they wipe. Just an awful, awful experience that soured me on the whole thing.

* Godhood: The latest from Abbey Games. You travel to six different islands, but the game doesn't open up at all past, say, island three. At that point you kind of just rinse-repeat coast through the rest of it.

* Flinthook. The final boss run of this game is way way way too long. The backtrack- and traversal-heavy nature of the game lead to pacing issues that become more noticeable as the late-game runs get longer.

* Hades: Just kidding! It's a tight sub-30 minutes (usually) full of interesting choices and challenges from the very start to the very end. No filler (except for the regrettable inclusion of "coins in breakable urns," another rougelike pace-killer) all killer.

On the too short front, I think the individual run length in Prey: Mooncrash is great, but hot damn I would not object if the metagame, so to speak, were longer, as I feel it wrapped up just as it hit the perfect temperature. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm always in the market for more Mooncrash. You should play Mooncrash.

I feel like almost all of them are too long for a run. But I compare every single game in the genre to Spelunky and I think that felt perfect.

@luchalma: As much as Spelunky was a forerunner of the sub genre, very few really follow in its style. Spelunky is very movement/traversal focused, AND player/enemies die in very low hits. Basically when you’re skilled at the game, you can run past/quickly kill 95% of enemies.

Most other roguelites since have a focus on combat; whether the enemies are bullet sponges or not, you simply can’t skip as much combat as you can in Spelunky. Nuclear Throne is kinda close, just in that enemies die quickly so you can do fast runs if you’re very experienced with the game and get some decent weapons.

The biggest turnoff for me in roguelite games are when the early game is trivialised by upgrades/experience and just becomes a time sink to get through. A single successful run of the game may be a perfectly reasonable length but it's having to repeatedly put in too much time to get back to the point where it's a challenge is a problem.

Dead Cells was the biggest offender for me at this in recent years. The early game is trivialised by health upgrades, more heals etc but you still need to grind your way through it and explore at least some of each world to make sure you are picking up better weapons as you go which just takes time. I ended up putting it down before finishing it because I'd spend over half an hour on autopilot with very little challenge and then get wrecked by a boss or new enemy because I just lack experience with them and it's no fun going through that grind every time just to be able to practice the bit where it gets hard.

Dungeon of the Endless' runs take multiple hours. closer to 5 hours than 2 hours :P And because it's takes a few levels before it gets hard, you're always committing to a long game if you press that start button. And if you want to do well, you're incentivized to explore as many rooms as possible and really take it slow early on so you can build a great solid foundation for your run with all the upgrades, characters, gear and resources you need.

I do like it quite a bit though. It has a fantastic risk/reward system in place, and every move that you make does matter. It's quite an unique blend as well with it's tower defense, character abilities and roguelike qualities.

I also agree with you on Invisible Inc. Got really deep into that game on a free weekend and then saw credits. On one hand, pretty cool that i was able to play through the whole game for free. On the other hand, i could see myself buying it on a discount afterwards, but buying a game that you've seen the credits on already is not something i really do.

Dead Cells sticks out for me as the biggest offender recently for runs being too long - they were fine when I was terrible at it, nice short length stints. After they get past the 30-45 min mark I start to think I could just be playing a metroidvania instead, I'd rather get designed rather than procedurally generated levels. Enter the Gungeon too - once I felt I had to leave a hour window open just in case it was a good run it lessened the pick up a play feel to the game. I guess a sub 25 mins maximum time to completion is a what I'm after in a run based game (that or never getting good at them, which is surprisingly common technique I use).

I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but I think the runs in Slay the Spire are too long, or if not too long they take too much to get going. I mean, I have almost 400 hours in the game, but man does a run feel like an eternity especially if I compare it to Dicey Dungeons or Monster Train now. It just feels like you take so much time building your deck to the point where the game "really starts", if you will. The start is always way too similar.

I mean Spelunky has a "Finish in 8 minutes" achievement

I'm not sure if I ever think they are too long or short... more than anything I'm tired of the format how they are doing it. In most games it just means seeing the same early level environments/enemies over and over and over and over. Very bored with it. There's a lot more than could be done to liven things up.

Yup. And then you get to the challenge and you try to turn on your skills and focus but you get killed quick or something. I'm really tired of the format. They could do way more with randomization and things and create replayability without the extreme repetition.

I was enjoying the game Synthetik for a while but felt that same way as you, and I, did about Dead Cells. It's not exciting or interesting at all to make me run the same levels over and over and there isn't any variety created really in most of these games. Dead Cells was extremely bad about that (the level layouts are so fucking reptitive). So its basically the worst of both worlds between random generation and a custom made level and progression.

There really is hardly any variety being generated in most of these games so I would so much prefer a real custom made game. Dead Cells would be so much better as a proper Metroidvania game. Synthetik would be better as a Crusader No Remorse style level based game. It's too bad.

Dead Cells is too long. I'm up to 2 boss cells and it honestly just feels like a grind most of the time. The early levels feel fair and beatable if you don't rush. Some of the later levels often seem almost unfair, especially when they have the invisible stuff. I don't think any of the invisible units in that game are telegraphed very well and I find them hard to spot. I've had several good runs ruined by those orange spinny guys that can basically one-shot kill you that are paired with the wizard thingy that makes everything invisible. The problem is that it takes 45 minutes to get anywhere close to the end, and there's a very noticeable difficulty bump as well at the end (especially on 2 boss cells) that emphasizes the bullshitness of it all. 2 boss cells is where I tapped out. It just stopped being fun.

As a counterexample, I think a roguelike/lite/whatever game that is the perfect length is Binding of Isaac: Rebirth (and the DLC, etc.). The game's difficulty is such that if you get a shitty build you're probably gonna die quickly enough that it won't drag out, but with a good build you can soar through the game reasonably quickly, like a half hour tops. The extreme differences in the various characters you can play as also make it a lot of fun. Getting Azazel + mind control tears will never not be the most broken thing in all of games (you can float in the corner and murder everything with a giant floating blood tear donut that you control manually).

Rogue Legacy had the balance fairly right in terms of giving you reward for each run but also ensuring you didn't have to slowly grind through the low level areas if you just wanted to keep trying whichever bit you keep dying on. The overall game can be quite long but you could still make progress with a short run by going straight for the area you are up to.

Spelunky achieves it by being quite short when you know what you are doing but also the early stages are interesting because no matter how much experience you have in the game the start of the game can still be dangerous and you have to pay attention.

I really like and admire Dead Cells and the studio's ongoing commitment to that game as a platform, but I also feel like it's simultaneously solved the complaint addressed in this thread and created an entirely new issue I often run into with Games as a Service games. With both Destiny games, I ironically played less and less of them the more content they added and I've found the same thing happening with Dead Cells. Now there are so many different paths to take through the first third of the run that I feel like I'm never comfortable while I'm playing that game anymore, but I'm also paralyzed with a mix of indecision and worry that I made the wrong choice for my build that I often don't get more than one or two runs in whenever I boot the game up anymore.

I've been back into Binding of Isaac again, and it's definitely too long as you improve/open up later stages. Your first run to Mom is maybe 30-40 minutes if you're checking every room, and that already is arguably a little on the long side sometimes. Then, when you get to the Womb stage, or Hell, or the Dark Place, the game can be like, anywhere from 1.5 to 2 hours depending on how powerful you are and how much you explore. I still love the game, but there are so many times where I just don't have the energy to start another run, because I know it will be at LEAST an hour.

I have this exact same issue also with Dead Cells, but I've noticed it a lot with Binding of Isaac lately too. The early levels are easily survivable just because the enemies are slow/easily telegraph their moves, but you're SO weak it just feels like such a slug doing some of the same patterns over and over just because your first couple of items didn't do anything for your power, etc...

I think the closest is probably Into the Breach being long, but I don’t think it’s the game being too long. I have at times sat for 10 minutes on a single turn, so that obviously pass out the length of a run. I think the actual missions and runs are very well paced (so long as I don’t drag my feet on something).

What’s also great is when you make a decision, then do the rewind ability, and start the process all over again.

I feel like my early successes with Dead Cells happened because I hadn't that much stuff unlocked. Now I've got more blueprints, more stuff seems to populate that I'll gladly ignore in favour of what got me to the last boss all those weeks ago.

I loved Galak-Z, despite being terrible at it. It definitely felt like it got a bit too long but loved the controls and the transforming space fighter.

I would personally love if I could carry forward some items and upgrades, but it's a rogue-like...

This is one of my minor gripes with the genre. Especially with something like The Binding of Isaac or Dead Cells, you eventually unlock an extremely diverse item pool. Which is great, it's variety and kudos to Dead Cells for animating such a huge set of different weapons, but frankly some of those items are just weakening the item pool because they're either downright bad, or they require way more player effort than usual to be effective. Or in the Binding of Isaac, there's such a spread of items that I don't think is weighted in any way, so sometimes you just keep finding items that boost say max HP and movement speed, but if you don't find anything that boosts damage or attack rate, your DPS is so poor by later floors that everything takes ages to defeat and those runs are miserable.

Dungeon of the ENdless is probably my favorite game (roguelike or otherwise) on xbox one. I do run into the problem of saving and turning the game off after a few floors when I'm doing well for the sake of not jinxing my run. The longer I play, the more complicated the maps get, so the risks get higher and higher and I start losing focus and make a dumb mistake and ruin the run.